New SMGs and why the TR one is out of place

UnclearAsh · 2013-02-21, 09:05 PM

Started a discussion over at the official forums, wanted to know what PSU thought.

Official Forum Post

Here is a copy of what I said

So I am curious.

During the first wave the TR got their High RoF SMG which had a default 30 round mag (cert-able to 40) and the VS/NC had their slow RoF SMG which had a mag of 25 (35 with upgrade)

Now the second batch comes out today and now the TR get their slow RoF gun (60 rounds) and the VS/NC get their High RoF guns (50 rounds)

Now don't get me wrong I like my new SMG, but shouldn't the High RoF SMGS have come with the smaller mags and the slower ones the drums? Doesn't seem very fair that the NC/VS get more ammo capacity in their speed demons then the TR does.

For the sake of reference here is the RoF of each SMG

AF-4 Cyclone-NC-25 rounds-RoF 652 rpm
SMG-46 Armistice-TR-30 rounds-RoF 896 rpm
Eridani SX5-VS-25 rounds-RoF 750 rpm
Blitz GD-10-NC-50 rounds-RoF 845 rpm
PDW-16 Hailstorm-TR-60 rounds-RoF 800 rpm
Sirius SX12-VS-50 rounds-RoF 845 rpm

all data pulled from here
Weapon Spreadsheet

If you take in to account the bullet velocity and dmg of the TRs new Hailstorm then it is the worst SMG, it should at a minimum have had its dmg increased from the 127 of all the high RoF SMGs

POCKETdonkey · 2013-02-21, 09:45 PM

While you do bring up some logical points, isn't pure balance something that should be forgotten in favor of empire flavor?. I mean why have weapons in every class be relatively balanced with each other when each empire could excel at something to the detriment of something else.

In this case the TR having a crappier SMG but say a better HMG.

people seem so quick to complain about their empire having a weaker purple monkey dishwasher or what have you, as opposed to embracing different tactics and play-styles, and what we seem to end up with is factions that are almost exactly alike.

Anyways you get the point, I'll stop here before this turns into a four page buzzcut psycho esque post :P

Canaris · 2013-02-22, 03:37 AM

the TR weapon doctrine isn't just about ROF, its also about firing more bullets, a larger clip with a slower ROF is fine

Rasui · 2013-02-22, 04:43 AM

I'm just annoyed that I bought the Eridani and now the Sirius is pretty much superior in every way. It's yet another case of "Bought a V10? Too bad here's the Parallax!" except this time it only took weeks.

Sturmhardt · 2013-02-22, 04:59 AM

Yeah.. I haven't tested the new nc SMG yet, cause I'm on vacation, but I already regret buying the first one because they brought out a new and possibly better one right away. Still, I'll not buy the new one, no matter how good it is.

.sent via phone.

ShadetheDruid · 2013-02-22, 05:20 AM

The important thing here is: better for your particular playstyle =/= better overall. Personally i'm sticking with the Eridani, my playstyle/skill level doesn't suit low damage weapons.

Therefore from my point of view, Eridani > Sirius.

Rasui · 2013-02-22, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

The important thing here is: better for your particular playstyle =/= better overall. Personally i'm sticking with the Eridani, my playstyle/skill level doesn't suit low damage weapons.

Therefore from my point of view, Eridani > Sirius.

I don't even think it comes down to playstyle. The Eridani has 25 rounds per-mag baseline. Which if you miss at all is a death sentence against HA's. Lets not even get into how much of a headshot king you have to be if you go 2v1 with 25 rounds. Now this is the part where you tell me "But Ras, you can cert the extended mag and circumvent those problems." which is true, but you create a whole new one. That being for some inane reason this game doesn't give extra ammo equal to your extended mags, so now you've got barely 4 magazines worth of ammo TOTAL. Considering how fast the Eridani chews through ammo at 750 RPM that's not much. You can go further and use the ammo belt to somewhat alleviate this problem, but more on that later.

Now look at the Sirius, slightly less damage at 125 per shot vs the Eridani's 143. However, that's compensated for by having 95 higher RPM at 845. Slightly longer reload, but DOUBLE the base magazine capacity. This is HUGE, each of your 4 extra mags are just as large, and if you're using the ammo belt the gap between the Eridani and the Sirius gets even wider. The nail in the coffin is that now your rail slot isn't being taken up by the Ex-Mag and you have room to use a laser-sight or forward grip. The guns are no longer comparable, having the larger magazine AND the rail upgrade the Sirius wins hands down.

Edit: Stats are here for the curious. The Sirius also has less recoil and higher velocity.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

Varsam · 2013-02-22, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rasui

I don't even think it comes down to playstyle. The Eridani has 25 rounds per-mag baseline. Which if you miss at all is a death sentence against HA's. Lets not even get into how much of a headshot king you have to be if you go 2v1 with 25 rounds. Now this is the part where you tell me "But Ras, you can cert the extended mag and circumvent those problems." which is true, but you create a whole new one. That being for some inane reason this game doesn't give extra ammo equal to your extended mags, so now you've got barely 4 magazines worth of ammo TOTAL. Considering how fast the Eridani chews through ammo at 750 RPM that's not much. You can go further and use the ammo belt to somewhat alleviate this problem, but more on that later.

Now look at the Sirius, slightly less damage at 125 per shot vs the Eridani's 143. However, that's compensated for by having 95 higher RPM at 845. Slightly longer reload, but DOUBLE the base magazine capacity. This is HUGE, each of your 4 extra mags are just as large, and if you are using the ammo belt the gap between the Eridani and the Sirius gets even wider. The nail in the coffin is that now your rail slot isn't being taken up by the Ex-Mag and you have room to use a laser-sight or forward grip. The guns are no longer comparable, having the large magazine AND the rail upgrade the Sirius wins hands down.

Edit: Stats are here for the curious. The Sirius also has less recoil and higher velocity.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

you could also argue that the Siriius' ridiculous h. recoil makes it unsuitable for any engagement past 10-15m, which pidgeonholes players who want extra midrange viability into certing the foregrip.

Rasui · 2013-02-22, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Varsam

you could also argue that the Siriius' ridiculous h. recoil makes it unsuitable for any engagement past 10-15m, which pidgeonholes players who want extra midrange viability into certing the foregrip.

The damage drop-off on ALL SMG's make them unsuitable beyond 10-15m. I mean you can kill people past that distance, but they're clearly designed and balanced for killing at point blank range. Check out the rate of decline versus other weapon types.

^ Right click+View Image.

Varsam · 2013-02-22, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rasui

The damage drop-off on ALL SMG's make them unsuitable beyond 10-15m. I mean you can kill people past that distance, but they're clearly designed and balanced for killing at point blank range. Check out the rate of decline versus other weapon types.

^ Right click+View Image.

This is true. But I think this was more of a design decision to keep them from dominating at mid ranges as well as close range, and they are VERY effective at close range. Given this, I think the Sirius was designed to be even more specialist than the Eridani, which is why many still prefer the latter - they favor the greater versatility over the former, even if it is only by degrees.

Rasui · 2013-02-22, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Varsam

This is true. But I think this was more of a design decision to keep them from dominating at mid ranges as well as close range, and they are VERY effective at close range. Given this, I think the Sirius was designed to be even more specialist than the Eridani, which is why many still prefer the latter - they favor the greater versatility over the former, even if it is only by degrees.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you simply can't take a specialist weapon like an SMG and make it versatile. It's a close range killer through and through. However, if you want to look at it from that perspective. The simple fact that you have the freedom to choose your rail mod without handicapping yourself makes the Sirius superior.

Koadster · 2013-02-22, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Rasui

I'm just annoyed that I bought the Eridani and now the Sirius is pretty much superior in every way. It's yet another case of "Bought a V10? Too bad here's the Parallax!" except this time it only took weeks.

You must be new here.. that is the entire design scheme behind PS2 depot. As soon as the first wave of smgs came out, instantly I told none of my outfit to buy them because SOE being SOE... they will release better ones in a few weeks.. And they did.

So from now on.. DO NOT buy any new gun that comes around, because in a few more weeks a better replacement will appear.

UnclearAsh · 2013-02-22, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Koadster

You must be new here.. that is the entire design scheme behind PS2 depot. As soon as the first wave of smgs came out, instantly I told none of my outfit to buy them because SOE being SOE... they will release better ones in a few weeks.. And they did.

So from now on.. DO NOT buy any new gun that comes around, because in a few more weeks a better replacement will appear.

Well all of them save the TR one, only advantage it has is more ammo, has a slower RoF, slower velocity, and slower TTK.

But I do agree with other that I much prefer to not be pigeon holed into the extended mag and dieing if I even miss with 5 bullets from my mag.

NotTheMomma · 2013-02-22, 02:40 PM

This is like listening to people argue over which flavor of ice cream is more nutritious. Vanilla! No, French Vanilla!

Sifer2 · 2013-02-22, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by NuclearMessiah

Well all of them save the TR one, only advantage it has is more ammo, has a slower RoF, slower velocity, and slower TTK.

But I do agree with other that I much prefer to not be pigeon holed into the extended mag and dieing if I even miss with 5 bullets from my mag.

Yep. They should have made the other SMG's more like TR's. As it is it seems like TR SMG is the only one's that actually offer two balanced alternatives. Where as for VS/NC the mag size differences makes it an obviously better choice to use the new one's so you can use better attachments.