Are the gun stats wrong?

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-12, 09:12 PM

I was looking at the gun stats earlier today, trying to decide what guns to get (if any) and I noticed...

The uppercut shotgun is listed as having the same damage as the other shotguns (and, amusingly, the fastest fire rate with that stat maxed out, setting that as faster than the nighthawk... obvious lies)

Do the gun stats have any bearing in reality, and if so what do they really mean?

SOE! MAKE THE GUN STATS MORE MEANINGFUL!

Ghoest9 · 2013-03-12, 09:15 PM

use this not that

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...er=true&gid=12

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-12, 10:38 PM

Interesting...

Now make one for vehicle weapons.

DirtyBird · 2013-03-12, 11:28 PM

Needs MAX AV weapons added.

DeltaGun · 2013-03-12, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by DirtyBird

Needs MAX AV weapons added.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mS2NqV1E&gid=1

DirtyBird · 2013-03-12, 11:38 PM

Thank you

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-13, 12:39 AM

What? No burster? :P

Anyhoo, judging from that, here is my analysis of TR class weapons, going by effective damage-per-second only. (naturally some of these are going to demand some recoil compensators if that is all I am going by...)

Infiltrator: Sniper rifles do not abide by a "dps" concept effectively, so just going with the Rams .50 for max damage. If you don't need to snipe at the moment, the SMG-46 Armistice has highest dps 1866.7, compare to PDW-17 Hailstorm 1666.7; of course the Hailstorm has a larger mag size and more ammo carrying capacity, so your call.

Light Assault: I was surprised to find the LC2 Lynx faring better than the LC3 Jaguar, dps-wise. I suspect there is some little advantage the Jaguar has, such as lower recoil while moving, but I tend to hate shooting on the run so that might not be so important for my playstyle...
That said, the AS16 Nighthawk seems to have overall highest dps for an infantry weapon, albeit that assumes every single element of the burst hits the target...

Medic: I was again surprised to see the Cycler TRV coming out ahead of other weapons. Why is the NS-11 not so high up? Perhaps the Cycler has horrible recoil... will need to be tested.

Engineer: Since engineers have the same weapons selections as Light Assaults, LC2 Lynx or AS16 Nighthawk are best, assuming you can control the recoil.

Heavy Assault: Unsurprisingly, the MSW-R comes out on top here, assuming you don't feel inclined to carry a Nighthawk.

I was slightly surprised that the TMG-50 didn't fare better on dps, but I suppose the slow fire rate is the counterbalance to such high damage per individual shot. And the TMG gets its chance to shine in being longer ranged than the MSW-R.
Unsurprisingly the Chaingun is total crap.

MAX: The Mercy wins, hands down. Other weapons are counterbalanced by having greater mag size and greater ammo carrying capacity, but seriously. Mercy is the only way to go. Of course, that is assuming you are attacking infantry and don't need to bring those &*@! liberators down.

That is my assessment, going by numbers alone. Though I am still hesitant to believe myself with respect to the Lynx and the TRV. Anyone who used those swear by 'em or do they have some hideous drawbacks of which I am unaware?

OctavianAXFive · 2013-03-13, 01:09 AM

Calypso:

The Lynx, MSW-R, and Cycler TRV are all very good guns but you must understand a few things about them in practical use.

These guns have very high rates of fire in their classes, meaning their recoil multipliers cause them to kick aggressively. In addition to this, you need to look at the pull indicators on the chart. Guns with = left and right pull are by default going to be less accurate at a range because a gun's accuracy is determined both by the bullet spread and the player's ability to control the recoil. With an equal chance of pulling left or right, gun recoil becomes impossible to predict which in turn leads to less accuracy.

The Lynx is a superb carbine, though it lacks the raw DPS of the VS super carbine, it is a very versatile weapon.

The Cycler TRV is a phenomenal gun at close to medium range but requires very short controlled bursts at the high end of medium to long range. The T1 is arguably more "versatile" but in typical infantry fights the TRV is the better choice.

Everything I stated about the TRV can be applied to the MSW-R.

What this all comes down to is playstyle and positioning. Some weapons might be better suited for certain situations. Additionally, the Lynx and TRV have some pretty painful reload times. Make sure you cover your reload on them. The blessing of the MSW-R is a short reload time complemented by a nifty 50 round clip. This boon comes at the expense of bullet spread however.

The TMG-50 is a bit more versatile than the MSW-R but is less forgiving in CQC. I prefer the MSW-R in most situations though if you ever get into one of those rare open field fights, the TMG-50 is an absolute beast.

Here are some weapon plots that are a bit outdated for you to examine the TR's finest.
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...l-plots.74987/

You can also head over to LevelCap Gaming and check out his reviews on the weapons.

AR's

LMGs

SMGs

Carbines

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-13, 01:24 AM

I am very familiar with the MSW-R. Heavy is probably my favorite class (most of the time), and the MSW-R came recommended to me by my outfit.

I recently started using the TMG-50 though, and I discovered it was quite good at longer ranges than the MSW-R, but had that little PROBLEM at closer ranges. I tend to find myself getting screwwed at closer ranges on a regular basis, but I was mainly experimenting with actually being able to hit something at medium-range.

For some reason, my outfit seems to believe the NS-11 is the second best medic gun in the game (the best one belonging to NC's arsenal). Do you have any idea why that might be?

And also, is there ANY advantage to using the default rocket launcher over the decimator? (besides faster projectile speed and the ability to carry one more rocket)

Ghoest9 · 2013-03-13, 01:39 AM

The Jag gives up a little bit of DPS to the Lynx for ease of use.

The most notable is the vertical recoil. Some people that doesnt matter for. I think vertical recoil is really nice.

OctavianAXFive · 2013-03-13, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Neutral Calypso

For some reason, my outfit seems to believe the NS-11 is the second best medic gun in the game (the best one belonging to NC's arsenal). Do you have any idea why that might be?

Well the NS-11 seems like a fantastic ranged AR but I have never used it. It has predictable recoil, average damage, and a low rate of fire. The predictable pull of the recoil and the low RoF mean that the NS-11 is very easy to keep on target. However the TTK is very low as a result of not having any help from raw bullet damage. I suspect it gets praised for its ease of use rather than its raw killing potential.

The GR-22 NC AR is an excellent gun and I personally love it. It is comparable to the TRV though it has a slightly smaller clip and lower rate of fire. The predictable recoil pattern is nice too and I think that an argument can be made that the GR-22 is a contender for "best AR." Levelcap is a bit more critical of it than I am.

Lastly, the reason you are having trouble with close range kills with the TMG-50 has everything to do with its rate of fire. High Rate of fire guns suffer less from missed shots. If you miss a shot with the TMG-50, you are increasing its time to kill more than if you miss with the MSW-R because the next bullet from the MSW-R is coming out faster than the next bullet from the TMG-50. In addition, the flinch mechanics in the game favor high RoF weapons. This is the root of why people are complaining about NC weapons (which have traditionally lower rates of fire). Basically every time you are shot your screen and gun jostle around. The more bullets you are taking the more exaggerated this effect.

As I already stated, the draw back to faster weapons is that they recoil more aggressively and can be harder to control in sustained fire.

OctavianAXFive · 2013-03-13, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Neutral Calypso

SOE! MAKE THE GUN STATS MORE MEANINGFUL!

Sorry for double post.

This a pic from a tweet by Higby regarding the UI changes in the GU04. This is actually from a few weeks ago I believe.

Tomorrow morning you're going to get your wish buddy.

PredatorFour · 2013-03-13, 07:29 AM

Or even better, wait a few hours to go into the VR training zone and test for yourself. I know i will be doing that

Bocheezu · 2013-03-13, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by OctavianAXFive

Guns with = left and right pull are by default going to be less accurate at a range because a gun's accuracy is determined both by the bullet spread and the player's ability to control the recoil. With an equal chance of pulling left or right, gun recoil becomes impossible to predict which in turn leads to less accuracy.

I've heard a few people say this, but it doesn't make sense to me. Guns with slanted recoil have a side-to-side jitter (horizonal recoil) as well. Everybody praises slanted-recoil guns like they're so controllable, but I can't hit shit with them.

OctavianAXFive · 2013-03-13, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bocheezu

I've heard a few people say this, but it doesn't make sense to me. Guns with slanted recoil have a side-to-side jitter (horizonal recoil) as well. Everybody praises slanted-recoil guns like they're so controllable, but I can't hit shit with them.

It's all about predicting the gun's movement with your mouse. In the new VR training area, go in and start shooting a wall from about 10meters away. Do not try and control the gun, simply click the fire button and do nothing to the mouse. Notice the pattern it makes on the wall.

Reload the gun and try firing at the wall again. This time try pulling the mouse at an angle counter to the recoil. Some guns may need shorter bursts for more control.

If the gun has a predictable slant, say up and to the right, you can pull your mouse down and left to keep the gun on target. If it does not have a predictable slant, you will never know ahead of time which direction to start pulling your mouse.

Here is an example from RivalXfactor: