Large Outfits and Zergs do the same thing

phungus · 2013-03-26, 05:50 AM

I fly most of the time, which gives you a good view of the battle. Your organized outfits for the most part do the exact same thing a zerg does, they just mass on small outposts and roll around crushing light resistance, and occassionally crash into other large groups usually at tech bases. What's so ironic is if you join a platoon they constantly call other big groups zergs. Let me tell you, watching you guys from the air you all look the same.

Now two nights ago I saw for the first time something different. DPSO was rolling on helios with each squad doing it's own thing, and only converging against other platoon sized elements. What was incredible was that each squad being organized could run out and take one or two bases at a time - and with 4 organized squads this made it so Vanu was in firm control of indar despite the fact VS never went over 30% pop, and NC having a steady 50% pop. Amazing what you can do when you all don't clump up on the platoon waypoint and wait for points. In the 400+ hours of play time I have in PS2 this was the only time I saw a platoon run well and not just say they run well because their leader was a hard ass making people clump up and take wayyy to long doing boring stuff with overwhelming force. It also made it much more fun for us sythes because of instead of being constantly massed over a huge force we could roll around and support the squads that needed it and we constantly had stuff to do instead of farming freshly spawning infantry from the spawn rooms. Amazing that.

Anyway all of the big outfits are guilty of this and in the current state of the game they all function exactly like the zerg without the final wimper and dissipation (this is replaced with spawning back at the warp gate to mass and sit forever before doing the same damn thing again).

EVILPIG · 2013-03-26, 12:57 PM

Blanket statement is asinine. Your observation is of Helios? What you describe is SOP for the 666th. Out units spread across the front and our divisions support each other. Are you trying to say you've observed all outfits, all servers?

Dragonskin · 2013-03-26, 01:09 PM

I've been in the 666th, Azure Twilight and I am still in Ghost of the Revolution and I gotta say you aren't being exactly fair to call large outfits a zerg.

All 3 of those outfits would prefer to have equal fights and they try to send their forces out to accomplish that. The problem is that currently there is no real flow of battle. So sometimes you have large outfits hitting small outposts with way more people than they need because there is no good way to tell where forces are needed on the map.

Trust me that all 3 of those large outfits would love to have more equal fights.

Stardouser · 2013-03-26, 02:59 PM

I would say that in the context of any individual base from the view of the defense, there is no difference, It all seems like zerg to defenders. The difference between organized and Zerg would be which base you attack, how many you allocate, how quickly you move on, do you use coordinatoon(ie have infiltrators hack turrets at the moment people hit the cap points) , etc.

PS2 doesn't yet emphasize overall strategy like what I'm talking about, it's possible just not emphasized.

phungus · 2013-03-26, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Blanket statement is asinine. Your observation is of Helios? What you describe is SOP for the 666th. Out units spread across the front and our divisions support each other. Are you trying to say you've observed all outfits, all servers?

Poppycock. I've had a character on Connery since the game was released. You 666 guys routinely zerg mass like everyone else. Every big outfit does, and from the air your movements are exactly the same and just as obvious to figure out. The only difference is large outfits don't putter out and dissipate, they regroup at the warpgate when defeated. This is more obvious now that I have an NC reaver, I routinely see massed 666 air over major battles, basically just sitting there over a massive group of friendlies.

EVILPIG · 2013-03-26, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

Poppycock. I've had a character on Connery since the game was released. You 666 guys routinely zerg mass like everyone else. Every big outfit does, and from the air your movements are exactly the same and just as obvious to figure out. The only difference is large outfits don't putter out and dissipate, they regroup at the warpgate when defeated. This is more obvious now that I have an NC reaver, I routinely see massed 666 air over major battles, basically just sitting there over a massive group of friendlies.

Wrong.

ringring · 2013-03-26, 03:23 PM

There was a question on a different thread somewhere to name the good outfits on Miller.

I named a VS one. Even though I play as TR I don't know the good TR outfits because I cant see what they do or how they do it but I could see what that VS outfit did because they did it to me.

Outfits on your own empire seem anonymous but really they're not however you have to get inside to see exactly how they operate and what they achieve. I'm certain looking from outside they seem just like an amorphous lump. It was like this in PS1 as it is in PS2.

Rumblepit · 2013-03-26, 03:25 PM

its very hard to know whats going on with these large outfits if your not on coms.... 666 dosnt really zerg, and i know because there is always method to their madness... its just that most outfits on connery really cant compete with their numbers and it tends to look like they are zerging.

i run with TTA" Mercs,Vexx,Op4,Kotr,Kaos,Tuf,Trg,Hfa,Fist"and sometimes we have 5 or 6 outfits working with us when we are doing joint ops. if you were a outsider looking in it would look just like a zerg unless you were on coms to hear and see the big picture.

so what im saying is you should look into how these outfits work before you assume things.

ThatGoatGuy · 2013-03-26, 03:30 PM

I don't think you understand that the difference between large outfits and zergs is organization. Yes, platoons like AOD on Mattherson throw out waypoints on occasion to get their massive tank zerg there. I have never seen a large outfit like TE do something anything nearly like that. It all comes down to organization, strategy, and communication. Zergs act like brainless tank armies that run around and half of the time are ghostcapping/steamrolling 3 or 4 guys who decide they want a few certs.

Badjuju · 2013-03-26, 03:47 PM

Sure some large outfits are nothing but numbers, but there are many which are pretty well organized.

This issue is the current capture mechanics and base design favors numbers over anything else. It doesn't really matter how skilled, organized, or strategic you are the larger mass group will win almost every fight. This is why people get so frustrated with larger outfits like TE, 666, ect and call them zergs. They get absolutely pounded because there is nothing you can do about numbers in this game, and due to its scale these outfits have become very large. There is in fact coordination within these outfits however.

Hopefully SOE fixes some of these issues down the road. Unfortunately there has been a visible trend lately of people leaving all the smaller outfits on the server to join the huge ones. Some of the best outfits in Planetside 1 were not focused on being the largest, but more on how they could work more closely together as a smaller group. I've been paying attention on the stats page and allot of those outfits continue to lose numbers and become smaller while the few large outfits on the server just get bigger and bigger. People don't like getting steam rolled so they join the largest force they can.

phungus · 2013-03-26, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by ThatGoatGuy

I don't think you understand that the difference between large outfits and zergs is organization. Yes, platoons like AOD on Mattherson throw out waypoints on occasion to get their massive tank zerg there. I have never seen a large outfit like TE do something anything nearly like that. It all comes down to organization, strategy, and communication. Zergs act like brainless tank armies that run around and half of the time are ghostcapping/steamrolling 3 or 4 guys who decide they want a few certs.

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

Dragonskin · 2013-03-26, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

This is why the new hex (old lattice) system is making a come back. If it was easier to tell where forces were moving then you would have more zerg vs zerg or large outfit vs large outfit action because you already know the fight it funneling at those locations.

The reason there is always a fight at the crown is because you know without a shadow of a doubt that there will always be a fight there. If it was easier to see the flow of combat around the map it would be easier to have bigger fights.

EVILPIG · 2013-03-26, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by phungus

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

You are just showing us that you have no concept of what is happening. We do not say, "go here" and lump everything onto a single target over and over. Our orders go more like, "1st Platoon, complete Indar Excavation, then capture adjacencies to Suarva and Cap Suarva". 1st Platoon Commander will have his/her squads spread out and capture territories leading up and around Suarva. "2nd Platoon, target through to Dahaka and capture. Then secure everything East to the H line and hold". "Armor, move into TI alloys and hold that front. You are the stop-gap". "Air, primary is to cover Armor, but patrol North and spot any significant armor threats". "Rapid Response Team, enemy presence in Paris, clean it out then push along the southern edge and keep the VS in check". And so on.. We're all over the front lines. Will we stack on a Biolab to break it if needed? Yes, and then we fan back out.

SgtMAD · 2013-03-26, 05:03 PM

whats funny is that ppl post this crap without any idea of what really happens.

and they all wonder whats wrong with PS2,wringing their hands in long drawn out threads that are confused from the very first post.

its friggin comical

ThatGoatGuy · 2013-03-26, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

You are just showing us that you have no concept of what is happening. We do not say, "go here" and lump everything onto a single target over and over. Our orders go more like, "1st Platoon, complete Indar Excavation, then capture adjacencies to Suarva and Cap Suarva". 1st Platoon Commander will have his/her squads spread out and capture territories leading up and around Suarva. "2nd Platoon, target through to Dahaka and capture. Then secure everything East to the H line and hold". "Armor, move into TI alloys and hold that front. You are the stop-gap". "Air, primary is to cover Armor, but patrol North and spot any significant armor threats". "Rapid Response Team, enemy presence in Paris, clean it out then push along the southern edge and keep the VS in check". And so on.. We're all over the front lines. Will we stack on a Biolab to break it if needed? Yes, and then we fan back out.

Thank you.