I think Air Vehicles are incredibly imbalanced.

[Rothnang]

I'm a Liberator pilot, and i'm getting really annoyed with how ESFs are once again at the top of the food chain of air.

In Beta it was pretty much clear that the Liberator had nothing to offer that an ESF couldn't, and that two or three ESFs would beat a Liberator in every conceivable way by a mile, despite needing the same number of players.

We had a brief period where Liberators were awesome, and their raw ground attack power made them a force to be reckoned with. Of course this unfortunately happened entirely at the expense of infantry, and even during that time ESFs were killing Liberators with ease. Liberators were genuinely better at farming infantry for a while, which is an unfortunate thing to be best at, but it gave them a reason to exist. These days we're pretty much right back to the old way where ESFs are just better at everything.

You know how I judge what kind of state the Liberator is in: I just set one down at a warp gate and count the minutes until someone gets in. It used to be 30 seconds about, now you have to practically beg people to fly with you.


When you compare the two aircraft on their various characteristics:

Cost and player requirement

ESF: 1 player does everything, aircraft costs 200 resources. On minimum income you can pull 4 in a row.

Liberator: 2 players to reach about 90% of its potential, 3 players to utilize it fully, but at least one of those players will get hardly any XP because he's sitting in a seat that is only important when you're already in mortal peril and has little offensive value. Aircraft costs 300 resources, on minimum income you can pull 2 in a row.

ESF clearly wins.

Ground Killing power

ESF: Rocket Pods have some of the best burst damage in the entire game, and are lethal to all ground targets. The ESFs nosegun can also be used against ground targets effectively, and is relatively easy to bring to bear since the ESF can hover with its nose pointed downward for extended periods of time pretty easily. Rocket Pods achieve significant sustained damage as well when "hover spamming", but this tactic puts the ESF at considerable risk, and the relatively small ammo count makes it not overly appealing.

Liberator: Carries an array of ground attack weapons for different situations. None of them achieve anywhere near as much surgical accuracy as properly used rocket pods and can't easily be used against the back armor of a vehicle. They tend to have longer range and can be used from higher altitude. Only the tankbuster achieves burst damage that's comparable to rocket pods, but has shorter range and less accuracy, and requires the Liberator to fly in ways an ESF is more suited to. The sustained damage a Liberator can inflict on an area is much higher than what an ESF can achieve, but both aircraft need a clear sky to attempt this.

I'll call this even, they both have their advantages for ground attacks.

Air Killing Power

ESF: The ESF can easily attack all other aircraft. It is significantly faster than the other aircraft, so they can't escape the ESFs attack. The Rotary gun will destroy a Liberator in 3-4 clips. An ESF can be highly effective in aerial combat even while having rocket pods fitted, which can also be used against aircraft at short range. Only Galaxies present a serious challenge to single ESFs, since there is no angle of attack on a Galaxy except right underneath its chin where not at least 2 of its guns can shoot back at an attacker, and it takes too long to kill to withstand its defensive weapons until it is destroyed when it's fully crewed.

Liberator: A Liberator can defend itself from aerial attacks fairly effectively, using its back gun, front gun and sometimes even bellygun. A Liberator can be a highly effective air to air vehicle with a good gunner in a Shredder. The tankbuster can destroy ESFs in less than a second, but is very difficult to get a good shot with. The back guns are lackluster at aerial combat, even the Walker which is a dedicated anti air gun. Overall a fully crewed Liberator with an explosive shell bellygun is not a match for a skilled ESF in an aerial battle, though is quite capable of dispatching novice pilots. It can destroy other Liberators quite easily, and is also able to destroy a Galaxy on its own, since its powerful front gun can easily hit the huge Galaxy.

The ESF takes this category too, by a some margin. It can 1on1 ESFs and Liberators quite easily, but it can't 1on1 a Galaxy. The Liberator can 1on1 Liberators and Galaxies, but falls victim to skilled ESF pilots easily without a very specialized setup. Since ESFs are far more numerous than Galaxies and ESFs don't need to compromise their ground firepower to have superb anti air firepower this goes to the ESF.

Speed and Maneuverability

ESF: The fighter is the fastest and most agile vehicle in the game, bar none. It comes with an afterburner that will raise it's speed to about 150% for several seconds standard. The ESF is significantly better than the Liberator at hovering in positions where its nose is pointing up or down, giving it a huge advantage at both using front weapons to attack ground targets, and engaging from all angles in aerial combat.

Liberator: The second fastest vehicle in the game, but not in any way agile. A tank can outmaneuver a Liberator easily although it can't outrun one. Stopping a Liberator and getting it moving in the opposite direction at full speed takes several seconds, and you either have to move for a significant distance in the original direction to make a curve, or stall the vehicle in mid air for several seconds to turn on the spot. Flying with the nose pointed up or down for extended periods of time isn't possible in the Liberator, since it's much slower to adjust its altitude or position to sustain such flight.

ESF walks away with another easy win.

Survivability

The ESF is the hardest target in the game to hit by a fairly large margin. It's not only an incredibly fast vehicle that can move in very erratic and unpredictable patterns, it's also a very small vehicle that gives people relatively little to aim for. The only weapons that really excel at hitting ESFs are airbursting munitions and lockon launchers. Automatic weapons are decent at hitting ESFs, but a large percentage of shots will still miss unless fired at extremely close range. The biggest factor that gives the ESF superb survivability is its ability to outrun any enemy in the game except for some other ESFs. Unless you kill the ESF right away or engage it while its already damaged the chance of destroying it before it escapes is very low.

Liberators are a huge target, and their movements are considerably more predictable than those of an ESF since it can't change direction abruptly due to its momentum. In order to make itself a difficult target a Liberator has to be far away from the person shooting at it. At ranges that an ESF still presents a challenging target at the Liberator is a relatively easy target for all weapons in the game except some of the slower launchers. The Liberator is vulnerable to all the same weapons as the ESF, including lock on launchers and air burst munitions, which are nearly impossible to miss with against a Liberator. A Liberator can outrun all vehicles except for the ESF or another Liberator. What it lacks in avoidance it makes up for with a generous cushion of hitpoints, but not so much that it can shrug off damage like a Galaxy. Horror stories of Liberators having way too much armor are mainly born of people trying to take them down with extremely low DPS lock on launchers.

Overall the ESF wins this category by a small margin. It will die faster when attacked, but an ESF is so fast that another ESF is its only predator, all other things that can kill it can be avoided. The Liberator is nice and sturdy, and can still run from just about any ground threat, but it has a huge target on its back, and any single ESF can catch up to it and kill it.

Combat scaling

ESF: The ESF takes combat scaling fairly well. It's extreme focus on avoiding enemy fire instead of absorbing it with hitpoints allows the ESF to effectively operate even if there is a lot of enemy firepower in an area. Mistakes are less forgiving in a big battle, but a skilled pilot can move in and out of a battlespace at extreme speed and avoid retaliation all together while still taking effective shots. Some terrain doesn't allow ESFs to make effective runs in large battles. For example the free standing crown gives ESFs no approach vectors to the target, so their ability to withstand combat scaling becomes compromised in such scenarios.

Liberator: The Liberator does not handle combat scaling well. Since it relies on its hitpoints pretty much entirely to survive attacks, it has no real way of handing overwhelming firepower. Also, since the true strength of the Liberator is sustained damage it not only start losing any bit of survivability advantage it may have held over an ESF with its hitpoints, it also loses any firepower advantage it may have held in larger fights where it's simply impossible to stay in the area for extended periods of time.

The ESF wins this one too. It simply does better in larger battles as long as the target area isn't completely exposed, at which point it does just as bad as the Liberator, not worse.



The ESF wins out in most of these categories, and I just don't really see what the point to the Liberator is anymore.

Air combat is pretty much a gimme for ESFs right now, they just rule at it, the only thing they can't take down 1on1 is a Galaxy, and when I say 1on1 I mean 1on5 of course. They can easily down a Libeator, which IMO is absurd, since even a specialized tank killing lightning tank which has no other capabilities is still not up to par with an MBT, so why should an ESF that can kill tanks and infantry just fine be able to easily go up against a Liberator as well?

ESFs are simply too strong. They can take on any other unit in the game by themselves and win pretty much, and a group of really good ESF pilots will actually operate in a squad - which at that point just becomes overkill. A Liberator is in dire straights against a single skilled ESF, but pretty much guaranteed dead against 2 or 3, which is a situation you frequently encounter simply because when 3 completely unrelated ESFs see a Liberator render on the Horizon they all go "Aha, 2000 XP" and start heading your way, knowing you can't escape.

Liberators are damn near pointless in big battles now, not just because ESFs are such a huge threat to them that they can't be effectively deployed as long as the opponent has a significant airforce, they also simply can't inflict any meaningful damage to the enemy while under AA fire. A Liberator is only really devastating when it can stay in the area and shoot multiple times, which it can't when its taking tons of damage it really can't avoid. After the bullet drop was added back in for Zephyrs and Daltons (which by the way was removed in Beta as part of their effort to actually make the Liberator viable compared to ESFs) you don't even have the option of effective high altitude bombing anymore. I mean, huge drop you can handle, slow projectiles you can handle, but huge drop and slow projectiles on the same weapon, when you're forced to fire at 500+ meters to even have enough time to kill anything? nuts.



Since people are going to make the argument that ESFs are meant to destroy Liberators easily, let me preempt that by saying: I wouldn't mind if there was some kind of interceptor type aircraft that specifically exists to knock down bombers, but that's not what an ESF is. An ESF is an air superiority fighter, interceptor and close air support plane all rolled into one. It can take on ground targets. It can take on other fighters. It can take on Bombers - all at the same time, and all with relative ease. That's not even remotely fair for one single one-man vehicle to wear that many hats and make them all look good.

What the air battle should look like: Air superiority fighters to challenge interceptors and escort the bombers/gunships. Interceptors to destroy the bombers. Close air support planes to provide pinpoint firepower on the ground when the bombers/gunships aren't fast or precise enough.

[Rothnang]

I just realized that my thread title sounds like caveman speak because I forgot a word.

[CasualCat]

I like a lot of what was said. I should add it seems to me that a lot of the AA buffs/air nerfs were balanced around the ESF with pods vs AA and not so much Libs vs AA.

IE bursters needed stopping power to counter the burst damage potential of rockets/pods, but a Liberator generally lacks that burst damage or ability to quickly extricate itself from suddenly hostile airspace.

Now if the Liberator is there before the AA Max that is different (ie over a tower/spawn), but going into a zone with already present AA is problematic.

A simple start might be to revert the drop/speed changes on the Dalton and maybe the Zepher while leaving everything else in place. Then tune from there.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

Your right but you forget something :
- PS2 is a MMOfps

You can't find somebody to come with you ? Find friends ingame who enjoy be gunners.

ESF is a trouble for you ? Find an outfit, you will find gunner and AA ESF defense (as we get in my outfit).

I pass half my time in infantery and libertor are really anoying and can defeat or force to cover one or two squads. And they are so strong that is really hard to destroy them fast (they fly away really fast when in trouble).

The other half I'm in ESF and they are still hard to destroy and can make lots of damages (with walker or dalton ).

So for flying safe, fly with other players (frinds, outfit or in the middle of zergs) and you will be able to play more.

PS: it's BECAUSE OF liberators (and rockets pod) that infanteries have now so many AA guns and for ESF it's really painful to always be lock near every where by squads with to many AA launchers who destroy fast (except when you run away quicly). And because of what ? Bacause Liberators have been kings for camping infantery (as you said) and to strong to be defeat by 2 AA MAX

[Sledgecrushr]

I am much happier with my liberatorsince I certed afterburners. I havent played since the new esr have been put into the game so I dont know what flying is like now.

[CasualCat]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I am much happier with my liberatorsince I certed afterburners. I havent played since the new esr have been put into the game so I dont know what flying is like now.

I'd say if going near TR flares are required. If your flares are on cooldown you don't want to be near their infantry.

Against TR the striker seems to work very well with the bursters. The bursters can cover most things, and if you get in render distance of the bursters to attempt to remove them you're then in range of strikers.

I've not had the same sort of layered defense troubles with NC, and can't speak to going up against the VS.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I just realized that my thread title sounds like caveman speak because I forgot a word.

Let me fix that for you

My opinion on the matter is what it's been for a very long time. Basicly all vehicles in the game are too versatile. ESFs are the most obvious example of this.
Personally I believe that all vehicles should have a clearly defined role with added versatility gained by use of secondary weapons (except the ESF which should not have access to both the nosegun and rocketpods.) But what I want is most certainly too late, taking into account the amount of time and effort put into the vehicles as they are now.

[psijaka]

Was on the receiving end of several Liberator attacks this morning; they certainly don't seem underpowered from an infantry perspective.

But I do see where you are coming from regarding the comparison with the ESFs.

[ThatGoatGuy]

I admit I'm a rocketpod whore, but I too would enjoy it if ESFs were meant as an AIR DEFENSE ONLY. What I mean is that the only belly gun available would be A2A missiles, though the AI nose guns should still be available. That way people would have an effective reason to pull a lib.

Suggested certs on a lib:
Composite armour
Afterburners
TankBuster: Zoom (Lvl 1 is fine)
Zepher: IRNV
Walker: Zoom (LVL 1) OR Bulldog Zoom (Higher levels are better)
As said before, flares are a given when going up against TR

Other than that, ESF certs are pretty obvious with faction specific rotary and rocket pods, defense depends on personal preference (<3 auto repair), and flares are absolutely necessary no matter what on an ESF (My main is TR and I still use flares every time).

[ThatGoatGuy]

Can you delete this post chip? This one, the one I'm speaking in. I posted twice :P

[Rbstr]

I agree air balance is screwed up. But I think your conclusions are mostly wrong.
Right now, AA is balanced to take out the air-tank that is the Liberator. Which have an order a magnitude more health than an ESF. Everything has AA and it's all way more deadly to an ESF than a Liberator. A lib can hit from far away enough to render busters mostly useless.

To characterize eh Dalton or Zephyr as worse than rocketpods is ridiculous. As is being upset it can't deal with aircraft very effectively. All of the comparisons are fatally flawed because they aren't supposed to do the same things. It's role is to be a gunship. If it's protected it deals far more punishment with much greater staying power than an ESF is capable of.

I'd much rather a much more agile Lib with less HP and a general reduction in AA power.
And also make the gunner turret point forward so ti can be used as less of a loitering craft and more of a helo-gunship sort of thing.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by CasualCat

A simple start might be to revert the drop/speed changes on the Dalton and maybe the Zepher while leaving everything else in place. Then tune from there.

wrong

The solution to over powered ESF is NOT to increase to power of Libs.

[Ghoest9]

ESF should have never had AtG rockets. They should have even had an AtG gun.

Thats basically the problem.

[CasualCat]

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Right now, AA is balanced to take out the air-tank that is the Liberator. Which have an order a magnitude more health than an ESF. Everything has AA and it's all way more deadly to an ESF than a Liberator. A lib can hit from far away enough to render busters mostly useless.

To characterize eh Dalton or Zephyr as worse than rocketpods is ridiculous. It's role is to be a gunship. If it's protected it deals far more punishment with much greater staying power than an ESF is capable of.

I'd much rather a much more agile Lib with less HP and a general reduction in AA power.
And also make the gunner turret point forward so ti can be used as less of a loitering craft and more of a helo-gunship sort of thing.

A lib can hit from far away, but there is significant drop/travel time (unlike pods) and if the lib can hit something flak can hit the Lib unless you're talking about lone vehicles out in the field. With that drop/round travel time little vehicle movements significantly increase TTK.

His descriptions of the Pods vs Zepher/Dalton are pretty spot on. If (really big if) the Lib can linger they can do a higher amount of sustained damage. Many times it can't linger though.

The Lib has more health than an ESF, but it is bigger, slower, and less agile making it an easier target.

That ESF has less health but can many times find fast approaches to not only hit but kill tanks Libs can't get near.

[CasualCat]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

wrong

The solution to over powered ESF is NOT to increase to power of Libs.

There isn't a single solution. That is a potential solution for the Lib not the ESF.

Since the drop changes there have also been changes in splash radius, spawn rooms allow firing skyward, flak has been buffed, and new AV/AA weapons have been introduced.

I think we could try reverting just the drop and leaving everything else to see how it fairs.

The complaint often about the Libs before were farming spawns. Drop isn't really impacted by that because you have to be close to the infantry for them to render anyhow. When you're close enough to farm a spawn with a Lib drop is pretty irrelevant.

What it did do is make the intended anti-ground vehicle role more of a PITA while not fixing the camping issue.

They said at one point they wanted Libs to be more over their target. I'm not sure how that makes camping better, but the problem with that is it has a big #$% cone below the aircraft where the gunner can't actually shoot.