Advanced Units

Rothnang · 2013-04-03, 03:19 PM

I think it would be great if there was a second tier of units that you can unlock by putting a lot of certs into one of the base units. The reason for this is that right now I just don't feel like anyone in PS2 is really special, even if you have thousands of certs invested in a certain vehicle or infantry class, you never get anything out of them that is really extraordinary. In fact, the diminishing returns for higher end certs mean that you might only be 2-3% better than someone who has half as many certs invested.

The basic idea here is that when you invest enough certs you roll over to a second tier of that unit or vehicle. The second tier unit is stronger than the first tier unit in some regards, but shares all the same equipment, so that all your certs are still worth the while.

Second Tiers could be unlocked by having, let's say, a cumulative 5000 certs spent in one vehicle or infantry branch. The number should be set in such a way that you can only attain it if you start buying up the 1000 point top end upgrades, so you really have to dedicate yourself to that unit and can't just buy the convenient upgrades that have low cost.

Higher Tiers for things like infantry would be commando versions of the class, that move a bit faster, carry more ammo, have a bit more health, and so on. They would basically be an upgrade from the basic version, since Infantry is relatively squishy, and having a slightly stronger base unit doesn't make it horribly overpowered.

Higher tiers for vehicles would basically introduce variants that have some advantages, but still use all the same gear and have the same hitpoints, weapons etc. For example, a second tier MBT could be the 3 man version with a stronger turret but needing an extra driver. A second tier Lightning tank could have the ability to cloak while standing still. A second tier ESF could be what a regular ESF is right now.

The basic idea here is that tier 2 units are a way to really distinguish yourself on the battlefield and show that you're not just a jack of all trades, and that you do more than spend the certs where they give you the most bang for your buck, but that you are willing to really dig deep to perfect a certain unit.

bpostal · 2013-04-03, 03:31 PM

I'd back this idea up, just because it'd seem that it would lead to what I know we all want in our secret heart of hearts...driver/gunner MBTs.
I can't really justify it though, as it would increase the disparity between new players and older player.
The jack of all trades syndrome is what happens when you discard the previous style of Certification system in favor of the 'everyone gets the ability to do everything right off the bat' system. Everyone is a BR 40 now, more or less.
I like the idea, I really do but it just seems like it would go against the 'no direct upgrades' philosophy that SOE has been trying to maintain, leading to more new player rage (and quits) as they get even more facestomped than before.

Sturmhardt · 2013-04-03, 03:33 PM

So basically you are saying that you want to be able to really level up and not only have sidegrades. Players with high Battlerank would kill newbies all the time and because you can buy stuff instead of spending Certs and you can have membership and XP boosters at the same time it would also be in favor of the paying customer because he certs up really fast. Skill would not matter much, the XP you farmed during your character's lifetime would determine the victor of a 1on1 more than it does now. People would die because the other guy farmed more XP than themselves, not because the other guy is better.

In short: It would be unfair to new players and money would rule the game. I think I don't really have to point out my opinion on that one.

P.S. I aknowledge the problem that "noone is special in PS2" because everyone can be anything all the time, but this is not the solution to it. A time limit for switching classes could be a solution, but I don't think SOE would go for it because then people would buy less shit for EVERY class and instead focus on one.

Maidere · 2013-04-03, 03:34 PM

lolno. The last thing this game needs is even heavier vertical progression, it's enough that some of the "sidegrades" are in fact direct unpgrades.

VaderShake · 2013-04-03, 04:58 PM

I think class spliting higher up in more specific areas might be interesting. For example on branch off for Heavy Assault could could carry more ammo for the Rocket Launchers or C-4 but give up their LMG limiting their effectivness against ground troops and upping their effectivness against armor.Or ditch the rocket launcher to be able to carry more LMG ammo or something, NO Elite Weapons or anything "special" just a cert to become more specialized. Or have it like the weight system in some MMO's.

You could also have certain "gadgets" availible instead. Maybe let the Heavy Assault carry a untilitiy tool that is a mini-radar allowing them to see all armor in a certain radius regardless if is has been called out or not. This of course would take the place of whatever your are carrying in one of your current slots and not be an add on to keep it balanced.

Just some rough ideas.

Rbstr · 2013-04-03, 05:11 PM

It would have been interesting to have the class/leveling system a bit more involved than it is. As it is, really all certs do is make you more effective at stuff the class can do by default and because the levels don't go particularly deep specialization never really meant much.

It would have been interesting if class choice had really been a thing.

Palerion · 2013-04-03, 05:15 PM

Yeah, I would like to see something where players actually focus on one class more. See, people take for granted that you can switch classes whenever to do whatever. It would make individual players have a more meaningful role instead of just being another pair of boots on the ground. Someone who is specializing in the engineer should be valuable as that class. Squads should say "hey, we need a good engineer" and have to look for someone who specializes in that. It makes individuals more important.

Haro · 2013-04-03, 05:31 PM

If I may add on my idea to yours, rather than having upgrades, which we honestly get through certs right now, I'd rather see upgraded specialized classes, like an that couldmengineer could trade turrets and ammo for drones that he can deploy or control, or infiltrators that sacrifice a primary weapon for more powerful invisibility, or becoming a true spotter that can mark specific targets for aircraft or other vehicles. I think part of the reason a lot of people feel that this game is shallower than the original is because of a lack of support roles to flesh out gameplay.

Ghoest9 · 2013-04-03, 05:38 PM

This suggestion would be bad for the long term health of the game.

Ghost Runner · 2013-04-03, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The reason for this is that right now I just don't feel like anyone in PS2 is really special, even if you have thousands of certs invested in a certain vehicle or infantry class, you never get anything out of them that is really extraordinary..

It seems the Devs succeeded in their balancing then, in other words working as intended +1 for the Dev team.

Sorry mate but I have to disagree with your Idea here. Old and new player balance is exactly what the devs been going for since Beta so I am glad to see they didn't loose the Idea.

Chaff · 2013-04-03, 05:41 PM

.
Oh my, God forbid a guy who plays (and pays ?) for two years and achieves some slight edge (numerical) with a couple key weapons, armor, or on ONE vehicle and/or one squishy Class. MOST newbs will get powned regardless.

The rediculously short TTK ensures newbs have a great platform to stand on Day-1.

Also, a long time grinder could get a Super-Vanny of some sort certed-up, but a group of 2 or 3 newbs with decent FPS skills could dispatch his Super-tank, and only take a second-and-a-half longer than a typical Vanny kill. Besides, these poor & unfairly treated newbs would reap larger XP for this particular Kill scenario, so in essence they reap part of the rewards that the long time player earned on his way to Certing into his Super-Tank. It's not really UNFAIR. It's best not to crush the hopes or expectations of newbs, but we don't need to deny loyalty to appease newby cry babies. Some things are best EARNED. It you EARN it, you should get it. Reward systems drive every game.

Most cats who got over BR25 or BR30 in PS1 were Jack-of-All-Trades & hence a 1-man army of sorts - especially in a tower full of a squad of true newbs. It could seem unfair as new player.
1) the guy put in hours to get to where he was.
2) a large percentage of these guys had high skill levels, so to hate on them is simple jealously
3) with time, and good Outfit mates, you learned how to handle them as a group if not 1-on-1

....few things are better in game than to beat these wanna-be (or actual) legendary players. The best are the ones that send rage tells...as IF they're TOO GOOD TO DIE.....PRICELESS.

NOT EVERYHING NEEDS TO BE, OR SHOULD BE, EQUAL. Guys have the right to ACHIEVE things that remotely reflect the Skill and Time required to get them. I'm not into completely pandering to newbs. I'll NEVER be a great player. I doubt I'll get up to average. Regardless, better players (or guys who put in the hours) deserve the right to ACHIEVE things with value somewhat relative to their skill & time invested.....not giant OP differences, but things that do distinguish themselves vs the average equipment readily available.

An interesting counter to this line of thinking is to put a different Dorito on these vehicles or players, so ALL can more readily identify the biggest XP targets. Guys can earn some better shit, but the amount of people looking to shoot at them grows accordingly. THAT is balance. SUper-Tank rolls into an almost empty outpost....perhaps you RUN AWAY, or look to Redeploy...or come back with better loadouts...and hunt his Super-Tank ass down. Players should take PRIDE in killing a numerically superior foe. An opponent may have more people on thier side, but you overrun them any way. Or, they have more armor, but you prevail anyway. Overcoming an enemy strength has and will always be a key element to this game.

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Rothnang · 2013-04-03, 06:34 PM

I think people read too much of an advantage into it. I'm all for horizontal progression, but there is no reason why you can't have some peaks and valleys in your horizon that are different from those in someone else's.

No upgraded unit should be definitively more powerful than it's root version to the point of being unbeatable, just an evolution.

Maidere · 2013-04-03, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Haro

If I may add on my idea to yours, rather than having upgrades, which we honestly get through certs right now, I'd rather see upgraded specialized classes, like an that couldmengineer could trade turrets and ammo for drones that he can deploy or control, or infiltrators that sacrifice a primary weapon for more powerful invisibility, or becoming a true spotter that can mark specific targets for aircraft or other vehicles. I think part of the reason a lot of people feel that this game is shallower than the original is because of a lack of support roles to flesh out gameplay.

This is kinda interesting. New features (like drones) is not the best idea, but imporvement of the keyfeature A via sacrificing the keyfeature B sounds cool (unless it's gamebreaking firepower improvements).

PredatorFour · 2013-04-03, 08:09 PM

I really like your idea and think it should be implemented into the game. However i don't think soe will. They want everyone to access everything whether your a noob or long time vet, they think everyone should 'kinda' be on a level playing field.

Figment · 2013-04-03, 08:17 PM

There we go. Didn't butcher the equal grounds thing PS used to have going enough.

How about.

NO.

Anyone that agrees with the OP, have you ACTUALLY READ WHAT HAS BEEN PROPOSED?

Cloaking Lightnings? Permanent health advantages? Permanent speed advantages?

FFS!

The reason you're not special, IS BECAUSE EVERYONE CAN DO EVERYTHING! Even if you introduce your stupid multi-tier system, over time YOU STILL WON'T BE SPECIAL, SINCE EVERYONE WILL STILL HAVE EVERY HIGH TIER EQUIPMENT (especially those that farm and killwhore instead of playing the game - way to buff the exploiters) AND ALL YOU WILL DO IS MAKE THE GAME LESS ACCESSIBLE TO NEW PLAYERS. YOU KNOW, THE ONES THAT DON'T LEAVE OUT OF BOREDOM YET.

Fuck sake, think before you make stupid suggestions. And no, "slight power advantages" ADD UP. Especially on top of improved experience and skill!

You want to feel special and unique? Give up 75% of your certpoint maximum and be forced to make NEW characters and level those to get access to the other stuff!