Calling it now. "Mattocks OP" threads incoming.

[Chewy]

I said that I was gong to redo my video on the Hacksaw tests I did thanks to GU6. Sadly I can't give that yet thanks to me trying to use Dxtory now and Windows Movie Maker hates Dxtory files. Going to have to either re-record everything again with FRAPS or get a new editing software (could use an opinion on what one to get). But, from what I found the Mattocks are GREAT weapons now.

Hacksaws have been nerfed hard. They are even worse at range against infantry and it now takes 13 100% hit rate shells to kill another MAX (no headshots). No NC MAX weapon other than the Grinder can kill a MAX without reloads or extended mags at any range now. That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

My beloved Mattocks on the other hand. They got a HUGE buff, I was able to kill VR infantry targets up to 30m without reloads and slugs are of use now! If you control fire or alternate your shots, those things can get ranges close to a TR Mercy MAX. Still not as good as dual Mercy in my opinion but it's damn good for a shotgun.

A small tip for Mattock users or just any NC MAX with slugs. Never, and I mean NEVER, fire both arms at once! Always fire one at a time, even just a click click can get better spreads than mashing both M1 and M2 together. You can shoot as fast as you can with alternating fire and still have better spreads than with controlled dual firing.

[Sardus]

Originally Posted by Chewy

I said that I was gong to redo my video on the Hacksaw tests I did thanks to GU6. Sadly I can't give that yet thanks to me trying to use Dxtory now and Windows Movie Maker hates Dxtory files. Going to have to either re-record everything again with FRAPS or get a new editing software (could use an opinion on what one to get). But, from what I found the Mattocks are GREAT weapons now.

Hacksaws have been nerfed hard. They are even worse at range against infantry and it now takes 13 100% hit rate shells to kill another MAX (no headshots). No NC MAX weapon other than the Grinder can kill a MAX without reloads or extended mags at any range now. That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

My beloved Mattocks on the other hand. They got a HUGE buff, I was able to kill VR infantry targets up to 30m without reloads and slugs are of use now! If you control fire or alternate your shots, those things can get ranges close to a TR Mercy MAX. Still not as good as dual Mercy in my opinion but it's damn good for a shotgun.

A small tip for Mattock users or just any NC MAX with slugs. Never, and I mean NEVER, fire both arms at once! Always fire one at a time, even just a click click can get better spreads than mashing both M1 and M2 together. You can shoot as fast as you can with alternating fire and still have better spreads than with controlled dual firing.

That sounds a lot more skill based and reasonable in my opinion. Nice.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Chewy

That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

That's a shame.

[Snydenthur]

Well, op whiners do need to cry about something. Otherwise they would have to admit that they aren't as great in games as they think. (I don't mean everyone of course, sometimes there are legit op weapons in games)

But what are mattocks? Or how do they differ from other nc max weapons? I think nobody has never even used them or at least I've never been killed by them.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Snydenthur

Well, op whiners do need to cry about something. Otherwise they would have to admit that they aren't as great in games as they think. (I don't mean everyone of course, sometimes there are legit op weapons in games)

But what are mattocks? Or how do they differ from other nc max weapons? I think nobody has never even used them or at least I've never been killed by them.

The Mattocks are the NC MAXes version of a ranged weapon. Like the Mercy is the ranged weapon for TR MAXes. They have the smallest pellet spread (2.5 as of GU6) but do the least damage. 112 per pellet against the 134 per pellet of all other NC MAX weapons.

Most everyone called them shit shotguns for being low damage and didn't bother using them. But a few like me thought that range is better than raw power and it is now paying off with shotguns that can reliably kill at 30m. Where before it was about 15m.

All the bitching about shotguns being to powerful at range has now become true! Before a 30m non slug shotgun kill was but a myth or extreme luck, now it's going to be a common thing. I am going to be happy to read the complaints of a once weak and unused weapon.

[Baneblade]

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

Shotgun approach... duh.

Spray enough invites around you eventually hit a target.

[Varsam]

I'm glad that NC now have a weapon that can at least compete at mercy/cosmos ranges.

Hacksaws are still plenty deadly at close range.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Varsam

Hacksaws are still plenty deadly at close range.

Still too deadly in MAX 1v1 fights. I don't think they can be balanced without being OP honestly and should probably be removed in the next patch. I've never enjoyed fighting an NC MAX. A TR MAX is fun to duel with and skill comes out on top, but I've never got that feeling with the NC one.

[Assist]

From playing yesterday, there was not many people using the NC MAX. I did run into a Mattock MAX at Onatha, he attempted to kill me from long range. Needless to say it didn't work too well, but may have just been his aim.

If the Mattock is better at range, but the hacksaws are dogshit medium range, I think that's a fair trade off. The complaint people had about the NC MAX was it was too deadly close range, and it the hacksaws seemed to have this ridiculous ability to randomly kill people at 40m+ as if they were at 5m distance. I know your testing doesn't show this, but it was how it worked in game usually. That's why my personal complaint was for them to fix the Hacksaw so it's either that close range specialist, or lower it's close range damage and increase it's long range ability. It seems to me that they went more that direction with the MAX, which is a good thing IMO.
Maybe they nerfed it too hard, I honestly don't know because I didn't run into a single hacksaw MAX, or maybe we can use the same bullshit response that people used with the Magrider nerf - "It's all psychological!".

Overall I think the shotgun changes were not that impressive. The same problems still exist. If I were SoE I'd just remove light assault from using them, but that would probably piss off 50% of their customer base. IMO Shotgun's wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they were always coming at you from the ground.
As for the NC MAX, if they're better overall then the community gets what they deserve. I was fine with how they were pre-patch as the only times they were a serious issue is when a solid player was using one(and those guys kill me with any gun anyways). If they're worse, then they'll eventually be brought back to what they were, similar to the Magrider.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

Well, he's like a MAX fanatic of sorts. I'm pretty sure every DVS member either plays Engineer, Medic, or MAX. It's like a MAX players wet dream!

[psijaka]

SoE are NEVER going to be able to balance a MAX shotgun against a MAX HMG; the weapons are too dissimilar. What they need to do is let the TR and VS have access to a MAX shotgun and NC have access to an HMG like the Mercy. This is how it could work (repeated from another thread):

TR get a MAX shotgun; higher rate of fire, lower damage, larger clip than NC.

VS get a MAX shotgun; slightly lower DPS but smaller cone of fire than the TR version above.

NC get a MAX HMG; higher damage than TR; lower ROF, smaller clip.

Everybody happy!

/wishful thinking

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Still too deadly in MAX 1v1 fights. I don't think they can be balanced without being OP honestly and should probably be removed in the next patch. I've never enjoyed fighting an NC MAX. A TR MAX is fun to duel with and skill comes out on top, but I've never got that feeling with the NC one.

Without certing into a NC MAX weapon it is near impossible to kill another MAX even with duals before a reload unless at least one of your weapons is a grinder and/or you have good support.

Note I said impossible and not improbable.

It now takes 13 shells or 12 shells and 1 melee from any NC MAX weapon but one (Mattocks take 14-15 I think) to kill another MAX. Those 13 shells need a 100% hit rate with every single pellet landing and that 100% is impossible with moving targets, even at 0m. At 20m it now takes just about an entire ammo pool to kill a standing MAX with Hacksaws. Mattocks on the other hand take around half of an ammo pool at 20m.

Against infantry a dual Hacksaw is still just a 2 shell kill at 0m. So farming a bunch of idiots that run up to you is still doable, it just isn't as good anymore.


But one rule for all MAXes is still in the game. A reloading MAX is a dead MAX. Only now NC MAXes need to reload more and reload longer if I read the reload times right. Im going to have to re-record everything again with FRAPS thanks to me not being able to use Dxtory files with the, crap, editing software WMM. So I can't offer proof just yet.

Iv heard that Sony Vegas was a good editor. Anyone got another decent editor that they can tell me about?

[Obstruction]

TR get a MAX shotgun; higher rate of fire, lower damage, larger clip than NC.

VS get a MAX shotgun; slightly lower DPS but smaller cone of fire than the TR version above.

NC get a MAX HMG; higher damage than TR; lower ROF, smaller clip.

the problem there is it sounds great but it doesn't add up.

"higher rate of fire" is much more DPS by an order of magnitude unless the "lower damage" is pitifully low, which it won't be, because it would be unusable at average player accuracy.

then lower DPS is just lower DPS, so VS would still suck.

i'd explain a little more why but all i can say is "because math."

someone else maybe can explain the relationship of these stats but basically i had a friend examine it by taking a set of given constants and showing one thing in terms of the other and that's how it comes out.

higher rate of fire and extended clip trump higher damage and faster reload up to a certain point where the latter either approaches 1 hit kill, or a certain threshold for low accuracy (range and movement of target usually) on the part of the former.

i know i don't personally have the credentials to back up my claim and i'm sorry, because where i do understand core principles and bigger pictures i fail at the math.

however, many examples can be drawn from other games where you get gear that changes these same stats. it is a well understood relationship i'm talking about and that's the body of evidence i'm drawing my claim from.

edit: i also want to say that i understand the lore behind the "personalities" of the weapons that the above example is trying to achieve. it isn't a bad thing to want to match the lore like that. it's just a problem of how it plays out when you try to make them match that ideal that was just basically written by a guy who thought that sounded like a cool way to trade off stats.

you can even see in the spreadsheet for the weapons where they tried to make it fit the lore but in the end everyone's stock weapons are about evenly matched with a few exceptions that everyone either abuses or bitches about the other guy having. and those exceptions have a basis in what i described here.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Obstruction

the problem there is it sounds great but it doesn't add up.

"higher rate of fire" is much more DPS by an order of magnitude unless the "lower damage" is pitifully low, which it won't be, because it would be unusable at average player accuracy.

then lower DPS is just lower DPS, so VS would still suck.

i'd explain a little more why but all i can say is "because math."

someone else maybe can explain the relationship of these stats but basically i had a friend examine it by taking a set of given constants and showing one thing in terms of the other and that's how it comes out.

higher rate of fire and extended clip trump higher damage and faster reload up to a certain point where the latter either approaches 1 hit kill, or a certain threshold for low accuracy (range and movement of target usually) on the part of the former.

i know i don't personally have the credentials to back up my claim and i'm sorry, because where i do understand core principles and bigger pictures i fail at the math.

however, many examples can be drawn from other games where you get gear that changes these same stats. it is a well understood relationship i'm talking about and that's the body of evidence i'm drawing my claim from.

edit: i also want to say that i understand the lore behind the "personalities" of the weapons that the above example is trying to achieve. it isn't a bad thing to want to match the lore like that. it's just a problem of how it plays out when you try to make them match that ideal that was just basically written by a guy who thought that sounded like a cool way to trade off stats.

you can even see in the spreadsheet for the weapons where they tried to make it fit the lore but in the end everyone's stock weapons are about evenly matched with a few exceptions that everyone either abuses or bitches about the other guy having. and those exceptions have a basis in what i described here.

There's DPS with HMGs and there's DPS with shotguns. Math used for one may not be able to be used for the other.

Getting raw DPS only shows what can happen with a 100% hit rate and that is never the case outside of 0m. What makes shotguns a shotgun is the shot used for their shells. At 5m pellets often miss and that requires new DPS numbers and new math.

The math needed for real HMG DPS at ranges only needs to account for COF, ROF, bullet damage, targets size, and the targets range. Shotguns need to add in pellet spread into that. That spread alone is why shotguns are shock weapons that unload all damage ASAP at the great cost of range.

An example.

Mercy has a 100% hit DPS of 1015.3
ROF (426) / 60 = 7.1 * bullet damage (143) = 1015.3

Hacksaws now have a 100% hit DPS of 2797.92
ROF (209) / 60 = 3.48 * shell damage (134 * 6 = 804) = 2797.92

The question is how many pellets and/or bullets will miss at a given range. The DPS numbers listed are for a 100% hit rate and NOT accounting for anything but 100% hit rate. I don't know the math to account for pellet spreads and COF on a target of a given size at a given range. If I did Id post them, but I just don't know.

But I can tell you from my play time that the Mattocks are THE best NC MAX AI weapon now. Raw damage is lower, but with the smallest pellet spread and tied for the lowest COF (same as the Scattercanoon) it WILL land more pellets at ranges far past the others. Today I was able to get kills from places and ranges that I wouldn't have before on a reliable basis. In testing to kill a MAX at 20 with Hacksaws took up near an entire ammo pool, but Mattocks needed a little under half. Look up the stats yourself

All weapon stats.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

Just MAX weapons
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&output=html


If you have the math to that can account for ranges, target sizes, COF, and pellet spreads then please share it. The worst it will do is prove this one way or another. I can take the hit of being wrong. Showing how I get my data and explaining why I got it should show that. If I didn't want to be proven wrong then why give the other side ammo against me? It's more than what Iv been given by everyone else.