New Battle Flow initial impressions

Roy Awesome · 2013-04-09, 08:06 PM

It's my first planetside 2 video like this, so feedback is much appreciated

Saintlycow · 2013-04-09, 08:47 PM

Nice work Roy

I really agree with your point that the smaller bases won't be able to "give decent fights" with such large numbers of players.

I really agree with the statement that defensible bases are good for the lattice system

Snydenthur · 2013-04-09, 09:16 PM

It looks like that saurva south fortress isn't build for the big battles either. Can you imagine whan an awful cluster it is, if it goes 100vs100 inside that small base?

Those big battles are what I fear is the good thing and a big downside of this lattice system. First you have your 100 people zerg and you go forward towards a base. You fight (or not) against the enemy zerg to get closer. Base has scu. You'll eventually get to the base and destroy scu. Then you have that 100 player zerg wait for the 15 minutes there doing nothing. So you'll have a great fight and then 15 minutes of total boredom. Every time you attack and win.

How would you really prevent this? You can't go forward since you have to cap the base to do that. And a lot of players care too much for the xp anyway, so why should they leave even if it was possible. I guess one way would be to remove the scu, but that is a risky way, since it might give the defenders too much advantage. Maybe add scu to every base and capping would go a lot faster when it's destroyed?

Silent Thunder · 2013-04-09, 09:22 PM

Well this was in the notes for today's PTS update.

Removed capture bonus time for standing at the cap point. Standardized uncontested capture times are:
Small Outpost = 4 minutes
Large Outpost = 7 minutes
Facilities = 10 minutes

Roy Awesome · 2013-04-09, 09:24 PM

It looks like that saurva south fortress isn't build for the big battles either. Can you imagine whan an awful cluster it is, if it goes 100vs100 inside that small base?

I completely disagree based on the fact that you are assuming the fight will take place entirely inside that base. I think you will find a majority of people will be outside trying to push in.

Snydenthur · 2013-04-09, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Roy Awesome

I completely disagree based on the fact that you are assuming the fight will take place entirely inside that base. I think you will find a majority of people will be outside trying to push in.

Well, that is true. But at some point they have to come in if they plan to really take it. If I was there defending, that would be the time to let them take the base. So I agree, that base can be great for the initial battle, but not so much when the enemy actually starts to cap it.

Roy Awesome · 2013-04-09, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Snydenthur

Well, that is true. But at some point they have to come in if they plan to really take it. If I was there defending, that would be the time to let them take the base. So I agree, that base can be great for the initial battle, but not so much when the enemy actually starts to cap it.

I kind of touch on that, but at that point the battle is already lost and over. There is no good way to determine when a fight is 'over', but if you are so pushed in you can't get out of your spawn room...it's pretty over

Obstruction · 2013-04-09, 11:42 PM

maybe there should be an scu at every base, and award the win to a somewhat extended area when that goes down.

then award bonus defender xp +50% for people who mop up or fight incoming units.

the obvious two problems in the current model are

1. people sit around for the points, cramming ESF and everything else into a tiny area.

2. nobody cares to hang around and defend a place since the incentive is so small that the minor action they get tends to be less than moving on with the group to the next fight/capture.

if you remove the status bar that shows when the points happen, you won't get the mob moving there to get the points. people will pick their fight and fight at it until the enemy spawn goes down. then maybe get a mop up kill, do some reps, lay some mines, move forward or man some guns or whatever.

Roy Awesome · 2013-04-10, 01:45 AM

maybe there should be an scu at every base, and award the win to a somewhat extended area when that goes down.

I'm not sure about that one. It fits well in the idea of concurrent objectives but the SCU just really ends a fight. There isnt anything wrong with ending a fight in general, it just sucks if it's too quick.

I dunno. I'd like to see what SOE does.

Chewy · 2013-04-10, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Roy Awesome

I'm not sure about that one. It fits well in the idea of concurrent objectives but the SCU just really ends a fight. There isnt anything wrong with ending a fight in general, it just sucks if it's too quick.

I dunno. I'd like to see what SOE does.

Before I got in Beta there was a SCU at all bases and outposts. It didn't work as you can see from us not having them anymore in outposts.

I for one LOVE to defend a place. There is nothing in the game that can top digging in and taking the brute force of an attacking army only to have them give up within a shot time. And no I am not talking about bio-labs. I find bio-lab fights to be over to fast by a bum rush or a long grind for nothing.

Im talking about making an AMP station the boulder in a river that takes the waters full force but never moves or wares down. Or defending what should have been an easy to cap outpost for so long that attackers just admit defeat and move on. Those are the moments I play for and can't wait to do them again.

Defending may seem to be over once attackers get inside and start to spawn camp, but a fight is NEVER over until you let it be. Coming back from a hard hitting isn't something that happens often, but when it does that is what defines a game.

The only way to "end" a fight is to have cap locks once a base flips. Doesn't need to be long, just 10 minutes. Enough time to hunt for sneaky pests or to push the front lines past that base.

Sonny · 2013-04-10, 04:17 AM

Nice video Roy,
I'm really looking forward to how these super-defensible bases will change battle flow. Could be a game changer.

By the way, you made a lot of good points in the video, maybe next time you could have a short summary of them near the end?

Sonny

Falcon_br · 2013-04-10, 04:25 AM

For what I am seeing I think the game will be like:
Join the attacking Zerg or the defending Zerg!
I don't like ghost cap, but my squad is normally delaying the enemy advanced with ambushes and killing enemy ghost cap squads.
With the new lattice system, there will be only platoons wars! You can't flank, you can't ghost cap, you must Zerg to take the next point! It will also be impossible to distract and split the enemy advance, because there will be only just one place to go!
It is the end of small squads and lone wolves.

Elgareth · 2013-04-10, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

For what I am seeing I think the game will be like:
Join the attacking Zerg or the defending Zerg!
I don't like ghost cap, but my squad is normally delaying the enemy advanced with ambushes and killing enemy ghost cap squads.
With the new lattice system, there will be only platoons wars! You can't flank, you can't ghost cap, you must Zerg to take the next point! It will also be impossible to distract and split the enemy advance, because there will be only just one place to go!
It is the end of small squads and lone wolves.

That's a very pessimistic view IMHO. You'll still have multiple options on what to cap, it's just that each "capping route" is now seperated. But if the Zerg is going the middle route, you could still go the northern or southern one, you can still split your squad up and try to take two facilities at once (apart from the zerg trying to take a third one), to force the defending zerg to split up or lose more areas than they can retake...
My hope is that through these capping routes it is finally feasible to wait one base down the attacking zerg-line and defend/counter-attack from there, since the zerg will most likely be streamlined towards the next target on that route, hopefully resulting in more bases with defenders in them, and less ghost-capping, but more fights from small to large scale overall.

Roy Awesome · 2013-04-10, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

For what I am seeing I think the game will be like:
Join the attacking Zerg or the defending Zerg!
I don't like ghost cap, but my squad is normally delaying the enemy advanced with ambushes and killing enemy ghost cap squads.
With the new lattice system, there will be only platoons wars! You can't flank, you can't ghost cap, you must Zerg to take the next point! It will also be impossible to distract and split the enemy advance, because there will be only just one place to go!
It is the end of small squads and lone wolves.

This isn't a terrible thing if the level design supports it, which is the point of 90% of the video.

A small force can't do anything in a large fight because there is 2 objectives during a fight: 'Capture the point' and 'Camp the spawn'. I talk quite a bit about 'Concurrent Objectives', which are things that need to be done while the other two objectives are being attacked. Add in enough concurrent objectives and there is plenty of things for small squads and lone wolfs to do in a fight.

Bases currently do not support this at all, and if the battle flow changes were to go live tomorrow, it would be a catastrophic failure because of that.

Large fights aren't fun when everyone piles onto the point or spawn camps. They are fun when you can split the fight up into many small objectives.

I look forward to seeing this in an actual fight. Just watching ghost caps is boring.

ringring · 2013-04-10, 06:06 AM

Nice video Roy and I agree with pretty much everything.

WRT hack times, I've always thought that they should be long enough so that a resecure team can get organised and move in, and then a fight can ensue. Whatever the time is, that's my benchmark and quick hack times based on no activity seem to run counter to that.

One question that's not often asked is what about resecure times? Presently with the advancing bar the bar retreats on a resecure at the same rate as it advanced for a capture. In old Planetside as you'll recall, a resecure happens instantly, pretty much. This meant that when the resecure team's job was done they could get back to their main fight. I think it may help encourage resecures which will help the overall fight.

(Also a resecure XP 'gift' however small should be there as an incentive).