Game theory: PS2 base design without /jetpacks/ and Liberator /cannons/

[Figment]

It's irrelevant whether this is going to happen or not, nor whether you would like it or not. Let's ignore that for now and just concentrate on how you think it would play out, objectively.

"What would happen in relation to base design and gameplay if one of the following changes was made?"


1. Light Assault:
- Jetpacks removed
- Sprint boost added ("Surge")
EDIT:
(- No firing while surging)

2.1 Liberator:
- Cannons removed
- Bombhatches added

2.2 Liberator:
- Cannons restricted to very small downward angles
- Reduced rate of fire
- Liberator restricted in maneuvrability (especially stall angles)


Q1: What would become easier?

Q2: What would become harder?

Q3: What other roles/units would increase in importance?

Q4: What would happen to general population behaviour?

Q5: What would happen to the playstyles of these units?

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Figment

It's irrelevant whether this is going to happen or not, nor whether you would like it or not. Let's ignore that for now and just concentrate on how you think it would play out, objectively.

"What would happen if one of the following changes was made?"


1. Light Assault:
- Jetpacks removed
- Sprint boost added ("Surge")

You would be complaining about these near speed hacking shotgun wielding whirling dervishes of death.

[Figment]

Provided they can fire while surging, Surgile-JH style complaints would definitely occur.

Edited OP to include that restriction, since that would indeed happen anyway.

[moosepoop]

jetpack c4 wouldnt be a problem if the game was already filled with anti vehicle weapons.


make jetpacks have a loud noise like the infiltrator cloak. fair?

[Figment]

Jetpack C4 is a problem?

Please note the relation to the topic: "PS2 base design". Edited main question for clarity.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Figment

It's irrelevant whether this is going to happen or not, nor whether you would like it or not. Let's ignore that for now and just concentrate on how you think it would play out, objectively.

"What would happen if one of the following changes was made?"


1. Light Assault:
- Jetpacks removed
- Sprint boost added ("Surge")

2.1 Liberator:
- Cannons removed
- Bombhatches added

2.2 Liberator:
- Cannons restricted to very small downward angles
- Reduced rate of fire
- Liberator restricted in maneuvrability (especially stall angles)


Q1: What would become easier?

Q2: What would become harder?

Q3: What other roles/units would increase in importance?

Q4: What would happen to general population behaviour?

Q5: What would happen to the playstyles of these units?

Q1/Q2:
1. - Nothing would change from the LA point of view. It wouldn't be easier or harder. Bio Labs would be a hell of a lot more defensible since no LA's, but Amp Stations and Tech Plants wouldn't change.
2.1 - Liberators turned into bombers would dramatically change the ground combat, specifically Sunderer placement and tank usage. I think it would make the gameplay more in-line around battle fronts and less about hiding yourself from the air all the time.
2.2 - Stall angles would be amazing. I don't think it would change gameplay on the ground much, but it would create more teamplay in the Liberator and effectively stop the Dalton/Zephyr from being used as the ultimate AA gun.

Q3:
1. - Heavy Assault would take more dominance at infantry fights. Far less people would play LA, MAX's would be used a lot more without the threat of C4. Infantry fights would become much more about spamming a doorway / fixed position and less about aiming to kill, so high capacity magazines would be more important.
2.1.2.2 - ESFs would have to become more supportive to air combat. The tail gunner on the Liberator would have to be effective. The piloting would have to change a ton, Liberators would have to be quick hit and run vehicles (Like they currently can do in large fights), and less about sitting at max distance picking off targets.

Q4:
1. - Too much would change from jetpack removal. Tanks could be less aware of their surroundings, MAX's would be ridiculously more effective not having to worry about C4, and choke points would become even more defensible in Bio Labs. I think it would ruin Bio Lab fights, but it could improve the Amp Station/Tech Plant fights. Amp Station walls would have to be fixed so you can't jump a MAX up them. I don't think it would change at all how small bases play out.

2.1/2.2 - Oh man, would completely change the game. Liberators would have to be skilled, but then you could increase the damage they do to the ground. There would have to be balancing done in accordance to the nerfs, obviously. Liberators would become more of the supportive bomber and less of the annihilation tool they currently are. I think it would produce more balanced gameplay due to the roles being selected. I think the general population would love these changes to the Liberator but the extremely vocal Lib farmers would throw such a hissy fit that these changes would never go through.

Q5:
1. Light Assault would be played so much less. Jetpack is the class, take that away and I don't think anyone would be using it that much. It would probably be played less than infiltrator.

2.1/2.2 - Everything changes, went over a lot of it in the above paragraphs. I think the changes would be better for air combat and for ground combat. Liberator would finally become balanced with the rest of the game.

[moosepoop]

Originally Posted by Figment

Jetpack C4 is a problem?

Please note the relation to the topic: "PS2 base design". Edited main question for clarity.

yes.

when im in a tank, i zoom in to shoot something for 5 seconds, and i get randomly killed by jetpack c4 all the time, with no warning.

[wasdie]

You don't need to remove any gameplay element, you just need engineers who know how to build bases to defend from ALL types of weapons on the battlefield. It's like the base designers forgot that they had to deal with jetpacks.

[OctavianAXFive]

Challenge Accepted.

Will edit this post once I'm done critical storming.

Edit: will just post reply.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by wasdie

You don't need to remove any gameplay element, you just need engineers who know how to build bases to defend from ALL types of weapons on the battlefield. It's like the base designers forgot that they had to deal with jetpacks.

Indeed, a large number of problems would be fixed if the Bases in this game were designed with three-dimensional thinking in mind.

Liberators and Rocket Pods wouldn't be quite the pain they are if we'd started with base designers who realised that "From above" is a valid Attack Vector.

Hell, we're only just NOW getting walls and barriers to prevent TANKS from driving right up to the Spawn Room Doors in the Public Test Server...

...Is it sad that, with my paltry experience in Second Life, I think I could come up with better layouts?

[wasdie]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Indeed, a large number of problems would be fixed if the Bases in this game were designed with three-dimensional thinking in mind.

Liberators and Rocket Pods wouldn't be quite the pain they are if we'd started with base designers who realised that "From above" is a valid Attack Vector.

Hell, we're only just NOW getting walls and barriers to prevent TANKS from driving right up to the Spawn Room Doors in the Public Test Server...

...Is it sad that, with my paltry experience in Second Life, I think I could come up with better layouts?

I understand why they designed the bases the way they did initially. With more players, just making tons of bottlenecks would result in a lot of lag and grinding. It wouldn't be that fun. However they went way too far with the open base layout and really screwed it all up.

Their ideas were sound. A mix of tank and infantry fighting would happen at bases. However this has ended up with tanks being too prevalent within bases and there being no area where infantry fighting can really occur. It's gotten better, but not good enough.

Planetside 1 had a really good mix of infantry combat and tank combat that is just lost here in Planetside 2. I do not believe Planetside 1 bases would work here in Planetside 2 given the increase in amount of players, decrease in TTK, and all of that stuff, but the general idea of having an area dedicated to infantry fighting in each base needs to be brought back.

Buildings are going to be natural chokepoints, but with some clever design you can avoid terrible bottlenecks. Buildings can be more open yet still provide a lot of fun for infantry combat.

I think all of the main bases need more indoor areas with larger buildings. Hanger and warehouse like structures would be great.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

yes.

when im in a tank, i zoom in to shoot something for 5 seconds, and i get randomly killed by jetpack c4 all the time, with no warning.

Lol I am trying radar out on my lightning.

[Sledgecrushr]

About the base design If the developers had framed base design as part of an ongoing story. For instance the lack of defensability at the inception of this game should have been attributed to the beginning of the war when bases probably have not been prepared for conflict. As the war drags on the bases would become more and more fortified mini fortresses. But the devs have missed this opportunity to make base design part of a ongoing narrative.

@sorry about going off topic there

[Chaff]

^ +1
Never thought of that angle Sledge, but I concur.

I don't remember without looking. Utility Cert tree ? What other options do you have to give up to add radar ?
IR Smoke, Fire suppression,.....?
.

[Cats]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

yes.

when im in a tank, i zoom in to shoot something for 5 seconds, and i get randomly killed by jetpack c4 all the time, with no warning.

Well I suppose it was inevitable that bad players would go after C4 next