Mechanics the Discourage A2A combat and encourage A2G roles

[phungus]

From a development standpoint and from a game mechanics standpoint it's readily apparent the stated goal of having "air counter air" and having ESFs being Air to Air fighters is nothing but a lie. This game is designed in all facets to discourage pilots from attacking other air targets and instead focus on the ground.

Don't believe me, well lets just go with the facts. Here is the laundry list of design implementations in this game that actively discourages pilots from attacking other air targets and/or encourages going for ground targets:


1) A2A missiles have a 50% random chance of shooting duds:

This isn't a bug, it's been the way A2Am have worked since game release. Every time you fire a missile there is a 50% chance that a dud gets launched, it used to not waste rockets doing so, but for some reason they found that 50% dud chance wasn't a big enough hindrance to A2Am. In the last patch the dud chance that used to just do nothing and take a relock now actually straight fire duds, requiring reloading time and more importantly shoot more missiles requiring rearming.

A2Am only have a use against runners and liberators, they are nothing but a gamble every time you use them, but in an actual dogfight they take far too long to use - and will get you killed, add to that their 50% chance of doing 0 damage and they are just a death sentence in a real dogfight. That's fine, let us dogfight with rotaries, but if A2Am are supposed to kill air they should at least fire real damaging hits so we can at least finish off runners, but that's still just a crapshoot in the current game. You want something that actually works, and doesn't just poof while doing nothing, grab rocket pods - it's what Higby wants all ESFs to load out with anyway so he designed it that way.


2) Experience gains encourage pilots to grief other pilots by ejecting/crashing, and encourages ground attacking:

The air game is all about ejecting and denying experience from your opponents. Higby has stated he likes to grief. He knew setting something up like this for ground combat wouldn't work and get him fired, so he made it so air combat is a griefer's paradise as he can get away with it there. It sucks, it's nothing but frustrating for a brief moment of satisfaction when you grief an opponent yourself, but I'm better then most in the sky so I kill alot more people that grief me then I greif them and it sucks. This design decision to encourage griefing is just stupid all around, but it's net effect is to make rocket pods and attacking ground targets more attractive while making attacking air less attractive. Considerably less attractive, when one takes into account the actual experience gains where killing ground targets usually nets an order of magnitude better K/D while also netting about 3 to 4 times the experience.


3) Rocket pods kill everything:

Rocket pods are great fun. They are also more useful in a dogfight then broken A2Am, while allowing you to attack the ground. Higby has intentionally designed air combat so that in close fights you should carry the default ground attack rocket pods if you want the advantage - as stated A2Am are only good against libs and aren't even effective against runners due to the fact they don't work half the time (literally, and by intentional design - it's not a bug it's a game mechanic if it's existed for 6 moths without even a dev acknowledging it), while rocket pods can actually be shot in your enemy's face in the air. More importantly though with how lethal the ground is not taking rocket pods to kill infantry and MAXes leaves you far too vulnerable. Rocket pods are just too good to pass up and that means many people who want to go A2A end up attacking the ground because the game mechanics all but force them to take the ground attack secondary, rocket pods.


4) Ground AA is so lethal ESFs have to carry rocket pods for basic defense:

I started playing this game at release. Hated air, whined with the rest of you lot about how terrible it was, and got just as pissed off by the OPness of air as anybody. Unlike 90% of you I didn't keep banging my head against the wall, I grabbed an ESF learned how to fly it, with the intention of killing air. It was actually really easy, even with broken A2Am the vast majority of ESF pilots were terribad and just using an OP weapon to wrek havoc, I slaughtered. Then AA got buff, again, and again, people flying got better, and air got nerfed again and again. There are no more terribad pilots in the skys, it's tough going as an A2A pilot, as this list demonstrates the game is designed to make your life miserable in that role in the first place, but now ground AA I just stupid.

When I fly A2A it's always AA MAXes that kill me, or almost always. I might get swarmed on occasion, especially in a slow ass reaver, but almost always it's AA MAXes that keep rocket podders safe from me and others like me. AA MAXes and AA in general harrass and outright kill A2A stealth and nanite equipped ESFs far beyond infantry render ranges - it's still common to be shot down by invisible god mode AA MAXes while engaging other ESFs in a dogfight. The only real solution is to carry rocket pods and attack the ground targets with extreme prejudice.

I tried staying exclusively A2A, going after ESFs, but it's nigh impossible with the current state of AA. If you ignore the ground it will kill you, straight up. Even at flight ceiling.


5) HUD and minimap designed for 2D ground combat:

Every bit of tactical information you get in the air is designed to engage ground targets. You can still infer things based on sound and other information, but there is no piece of the HUD or anything the developers have created that in any way shape or form would be useful to the A2A pilot - it all must be inferred based on other game mechanics specifically designed for ground fighting. Even scout radar in an ESF is utterly and completely useless against enemy air, though it is downright awesome for finding and engaging ground targets. To date my best run is still banshee + rocket pods and scout radar with 77 kill and 3 deaths (2 of which were to friendly air collisions); keep in mind this is from someone who spends 90% of their time in the air as an A2A ESF, and I still have far exceeded any air to air performance farming ground targets.


6) Main A2A gun the rotary is great for killing infantry and was nerfed against air targets with a slow velocity:

The rotary, the goto gun. Good for killing infantry, used to be great for killing air, but was intentionally nerfed to make it much worse at that task. Don't get me wrong, you can still kill air with a rotary, and it is one of those must load items, no matter what you want to do, but it's been intentionally designed to make it worse at killing air. This is very important, you must keep in mind that killing air targets as air requires the human brain to do many calculations to properly lead in 3 dimensions while moving through 3 dimension. It's a difficult task, one that used to be made easier with the rotary acting like an A2A gun in both real life and also in any flying game I have seen - by having a fast velocity requiring less difficult calculations to be made for the human brain (and also affording less time for evasive manuevering). They nerfed it though, intentionally making it much harder.

Now first off, I've adapted to it. I can still kill air with my rotary - my skills or your skills are irrelevant to the point. The issue is Higby had to have decided ESFs were too lethal to other ESFs (they weren't and still aren't) and buffed them in comparison to all other units by making their primary ESF attack weapon much more difficult to use - this also has the side effect of making entering the air game even a more daunting task for new pilots. Good luck learning to fly in this game on all accounts, but having the primary weapon you will use take hours and hours figuring out how to lead must be completely frustrating and downright infuriating to new pilots. Keep in mind the development team, lead by Higby must have decided A2A roles needed nerfing, since the rotary velocity nerf only nerfs A2A combat - that is an intentional design decision, the only outcome of this decision was to further the divide and rewards one gets from taking an A2A vs A2G role. At game release air to ground was already better for experience gain, K/D, and just far more enjoyable, but the developers led by Higby intentionally skewed this even more for no other reason then to further discourage A2A combat.


Conclusion: Every facet of this game's air mechanics are designed to discourage ESF pilots from attacking other air units, and instead focus on Ground Targets.

There is nothing else really to say on this topic. Everything, literally every game mechanic in PS2 from the HUD, minimap and game information, to random % chances of weapon failures, to weapon effectiveness, and even capped off by experience earning and K/D ratios that the game records encourages and downright forces players who want to play an Air to Air role to abandon that gameplay and instead focus on killing ground targets. Litererally every mechanic and piece of this game does that.

[DarkBalths]

I want to start off by saying I agree with a lot of this post. However, it seems you really have a grudge against Mat Higby, because instead of blaming everyone at Sony who is responsible, you word everything as if Higby made this game single-handed. I also get the impression that you are quite frustrated, which I totally understand.
I am a TR player. I have the usual build on my Mosquito:
M18 Rotary, 1.25x Zoom
Hellfire Rocket Pods, 80 rounds total, Infra-red optics
dogfighting airframe lvl. 1
Flares 1
Nanite Auto repair 1

I find that it's extremely easy to murk infantry and armour targets, as long as I keep moving, and I enjoy that; it's fun. Everyone likes it. However, whenever I hear an enemy ESF, I instantly feel my stomach drop, because I know that air combat is so flawed, that I just can't get into it. To illustrate what I mean when I say A2A combat is ridiculous, let me reference another game, Star Wars: Battlefront II.
BFII had one thing that PS2 so desperately needs:
A lock on mechanic.
I don't mean lock on, like A2A missiles. I mean, when you see and enemy ESF, you hold the spot key, and a red box surrounds their aircraft and follows it, so you know where your target is, even when they're off the screen. If they're to your right, the targeting mechanism should show an arrow in their direction.
This is essential for proper air combat.

As for the "50% failure rate" of A2A missiles, that should be removed completely. That is the most bullshit thing I've ever heard. You only get 5 rockets to begin with (without upgrades), so why should half of them fail? Remove.

The Rotary really should have a higher velocity. It's almost as bad as the Skyguard's projectile speed. It's annoying and downright just not fun to have such slow projectile velocity that you have to aim 10m in front of your target to hit it.

Experience should be granted in full if someone crashed their ESF just to deny you the full 400XP for the kill. It's such a cheap move to deny someone XP that they earned fair and square, just by crashing into the ground.
If you know what you're doing, ground AA isn't that much of a problem.
If you know that the enemy has an entire armour column, expect Skyguards. ESFs shouldn't be able to annihilate enemy armour uncontested; they are meant as Air Support.

This game really needs some HUD improvements to allow proper A2A combat. I realize a lot of L33T G4m3R Pay2Win BR99s will jump on this thread and say "You guys are just complaining because you suck", but aircraft really should be able to engage other aircraft without the need to spend 1000 hours in game mastering the art of predicting the enemy pilot's mind.

[phungus]

Originally Posted by DarkBalths

I want to start off by saying I agree with a lot of this post. However, it seems you really have a grudge against Mat Higby, because instead of blaming everyone at Sony who is responsible, you word everything as if Higby made this game single-handed. I also get the impression that you are quite frustrated, which I totally understand.

A properly functioning FPS MMO will be the next great game and will be in the same profitability ballpark as EVE Online and WoW. Right now this game has failed on so many levels and is nowhere near accomplishing that goal. Look at the playerbase and actually listen to their complaints. This isn't like a good game where yes, people always whine and are just whining for the sake of whining or wanting something for them specifically. This game was intentionally screwed up or just screwed up by massive negligence.

I know software design is difficult, I taught myself how to code in C++ for modding. Currently I'm one of the underemployed (which is probably why I play this game too much), but do plan on doing more coding as it pays pretty well and I do enjoy it. But again, I know it's hard, I know there are no easy fixes to things like render distance, etc. But this game is so screwed I can't just dismiss it. Right now PS2 is just wasted potential, hopeful a good developer like Valve will pick up the concept and realize it's potentional. Anyway Higby is the lead designer, the buck stops at him (well actually it stops at his corporate overloards, but that's another topic).

There are so many intentionally created game mechanics that are just frustrating, and don't serve anyone in terms of gameplay engagement. One of the best examples of this is XP denial. This is a mechanic that would take at most a day to fix. I could code a fix easily in a few hours, and I'm not a great coder - it's just really simple mechanically once you'd have access to the source; kills and damage are calculated and stored, they are accessible. The fact the game actively encourages infantry farming over an air to air role intentionally through it's K/D recording and XP/character growth system is purely designed by Higby to get his troll jollies off. I envision Higby sitting there with a troll face on every time someone gets XP denied, and it's these sorts of intentional development decisions that make me hope he gets fired or find a better job, because PS2 will be much better off when he leaves.

[fierce deity]

Originally Posted by phungus

From a development standpoint and from a game mechanics standpoint it's readily apparent the stated goal of having "air counter air" and having ESFs being Air to Air fighters is nothing but a lie. This game is designed in all facets to discourage pilots from attacking other air targets and instead focus on the ground.

Don't believe me, well lets just go with the facts. Here is the laundry list of design implementations in this game that actively discourages pilots from attacking other air targets and/or encourages going for ground targets:


1) A2A missiles have a 50% random chance of shooting duds:

This isn't a bug, it's been the way A2Am have worked since game release. Every time you fire a missile there is a 50% chance that a dud gets launched, it used to not waste rockets doing so, but for some reason they found that 50% dud chance wasn't a big enough hindrance to A2Am. In the last patch the dud chance that used to just do nothing and take a relock now actually straight fire duds, requiring reloading time and more importantly shoot more missiles requiring rearming.

A2Am only have a use against runners and liberators, they are nothing but a gamble every time you use them, but in an actual dogfight they take far too long to use - and will get you killed, add to that their 50% chance of doing 0 damage and they are just a death sentence in a real dogfight. That's fine, let us dogfight with rotaries, but if A2Am are supposed to kill air they should at least fire real damaging hits so we can at least finish off runners, but that's still just a crapshoot in the current game. You want something that actually works, and doesn't just poof while doing nothing, grab rocket pods - it's what Higby wants all ESFs to load out with anyway so he designed it that way.

If this is true, and I will take your word on it, this is a major issue. Your A2A missiles should work every time. I understand that Higby and the dev team might be concerned about A2A missile spam, but there has been a hard counter for this since day one that is practically a must have due to all the G2A lock-ons.

Originally Posted by phungus

2) Experience gains encourage pilots to grief other pilots by ejecting/crashing, and encourages ground attacking:

Originally Posted by phungus

The air game is all about ejecting and denying experience from your opponents. Higby has stated he likes to grief. He knew setting something up like this for ground combat wouldn't work and get him fired, so he made it so air combat is a griefer's paradise as he can get away with it there. It sucks, it's nothing but frustrating for a brief moment of satisfaction when you grief an opponent yourself, but I'm better then most in the sky so I kill alot more people that grief me then I greif them and it sucks. This design decision to encourage griefing is just stupid all around, but it's net effect is to make rocket pods and attacking ground targets more attractive while making attacking air less attractive. Considerably less attractive, when one takes into account the actual experience gains where killing ground targets usually nets an order of magnitude better K/D while also netting about 3 to 4 times the experience.

You should only be able to bail if you have certed into the ejection seat or you are parked on the ground.

Originally Posted by phungus

3) Rocket pods kill everything:

Originally Posted by phungus

Rocket pods are great fun. They are also more useful in a dogfight then broken A2Am, while allowing you to attack the ground. Higby has intentionally designed air combat so that in close fights you should carry the default ground attack rocket pods if you want the advantage - as stated A2Am are only good against libs and aren't even effective against runners due to the fact they don't work half the time (literally, and by intentional design - it's not a bug it's a game mechanic if it's existed for 6 moths without even a dev acknowledging it), while rocket pods can actually be shot in your enemy's face in the air. More importantly though with how lethal the ground is not taking rocket pods to kill infantry and MAXes leaves you far too vulnerable. Rocket pods are just too good to pass up and that means many people who want to go A2A end up attacking the ground because the game mechanics all but force them to take the ground attack secondary, rocket pods.

Rocket Pod velocity nerf maybe? And once again A2A should always work.

Originally Posted by phungus

4) Ground AA is so lethal ESFs have to carry rocket pods for basic defense:

Originally Posted by phungus

I started playing this game at release. Hated air, whined with the rest of you lot about how terrible it was, and got just as pissed off by the OPness of air as anybody. Unlike 90% of you I didn't keep banging my head against the wall, I grabbed an ESF learned how to fly it, with the intention of killing air. It was actually really easy, even with broken A2Am the vast majority of ESF pilots were terribad and just using an OP weapon to wrek havoc, I slaughtered. Then AA got buff, again, and again, people flying got better, and air got nerfed again and again. There are no more terribad pilots in the skys, it's tough going as an A2A pilot, as this list demonstrates the game is designed to make your life miserable in that role in the first place, but now ground AA I just stupid.

When I fly A2A it's always AA MAXes that kill me, or almost always. I might get swarmed on occasion, especially in a slow ass reaver, but almost always it's AA MAXes that keep rocket podders safe from me and others like me. AA MAXes and AA in general harrass and outright kill A2A stealth and nanite equipped ESFs far beyond infantry render ranges - it's still common to be shot down by invisible god mode AA MAXes while engaging other ESFs in a dogfight. The only real solution is to carry rocket pods and attack the ground targets with extreme prejudice.

I tried staying exclusively A2A, going after ESFs, but it's nigh impossible with the current state of AA. If you ignore the ground it will kill you, straight up. Even at flight ceiling.

The solution to this is to universally increase the flight ceiling to 3000m, while giving G2A lock-ons and Burster maxes a 1000m maximum range. This would give air a 2000m high haven for dog fighting and a "safe" zone for galaxies and libs to get to target. Galaxies should only be able to deploy troops from 1000m and below. Liberator belly guns should be so inaccurate as to be unusable from above 1000m. Obviously some AA should reach this area so Skyguards and AA turrets should have a 3000m range and get a velocity buff so they can actually hit targets at this range.

Originally Posted by phungus

5) HUD and minimap designed for 2D ground combat:

Originally Posted by phungus

Every bit of tactical information you get in the air is designed to engage ground targets. You can still infer things based on sound and other information, but there is no piece of the HUD or anything the developers have created that in any way shape or form would be useful to the A2A pilot - it all must be inferred based on other game mechanics specifically designed for ground fighting. Even scout radar in an ESF is utterly and completely useless against enemy air, though it is downright awesome for finding and engaging ground targets. To date my best run is still banshee + rocket pods and scout radar with 77 kill and 3 deaths (2 of which were to friendly air collisions); keep in mind this is from someone who spends 90% of their time in the air as an A2A ESF, and I still have far exceeded any air to air performance farming ground targets.

Agreed. Aircraft need some sort of a 3D radar.

Originally Posted by phungus

6) Main A2A gun the rotary is great for killing infantry and was nerfed against air targets with a slow velocity:

Originally Posted by phungus

The rotary, the goto gun. Good for killing infantry, used to be great for killing air, but was intentionally nerfed to make it much worse at that task. Don't get me wrong, you can still kill air with a rotary, and it is one of those must load items, no matter what you want to do, but it's been intentionally designed to make it worse at killing air. This is very important, you must keep in mind that killing air targets as air requires the human brain to do many calculations to properly lead in 3 dimensions while moving through 3 dimension. It's a difficult task, one that used to be made easier with the rotary acting like an A2A gun in both real life and also in any flying game I have seen - by having a fast velocity requiring less difficult calculations to be made for the human brain (and also affording less time for evasive manuevering). They nerfed it though, intentionally making it much harder.

Now first off, I've adapted to it. I can still kill air with my rotary - my skills or your skills are irrelevant to the point. The issue is Higby had to have decided ESFs were too lethal to other ESFs (they weren't and still aren't) and buffed them in comparison to all other units by making their primary ESF attack weapon much more difficult to use - this also has the side effect of making entering the air game even a more daunting task for new pilots. Good luck learning to fly in this game on all accounts, but having the primary weapon you will use take hours and hours figuring out how to lead must be completely frustrating and downright infuriating to new pilots. Keep in mind the development team, lead by Higby must have decided A2A roles needed nerfing, since the rotary velocity nerf only nerfs A2A combat - that is an intentional design decision, the only outcome of this decision was to further the divide and rewards one gets from taking an A2A vs A2G role. At game release air to ground was already better for experience gain, K/D, and just far more enjoyable, but the developers led by Higby intentionally skewed this even more for no other reason then to further discourage A2A combat.

If air is highly lethal against air, isn't that balanced?

Now for some thoughts of my own. There needs to be an aircraft that is purely A2A. This would be a high speed interceptor designed for taking out Galaxies and Liberators flying at high altitude. It should cruise at 1.5x the max speed of ESFs, and be very agile. It's primary weapon should be something akin to the tank buster. Its secondaries should be afterburners or A2A missiles. To counter its hard hitting weapons, it would have very low health, and be unable to hover except for takeoff and landing. They should cost about as much as a galaxy.

The way I envision such an aircraft being used is this. They patrol the skies at max altitude looking for enemy galaxies intruding on their airspace. When one is spotted, they dive towards it attaining max speed on the way. Once in range they engage the Galaxy with their nose cannon in a quick but hard hitting fly-by attack using speed and agility to try to dodge the Galaxies AA guns, since those would wreck the interceptor in seconds. Rinse and Repeat with multiple strafing runs until either the galaxy is taken out or the Galaxy destroys the interceptor. Interceptors would never fly below 1000m in contested areas since AA would utterly destroy it.

[Boildown]

The proper way to design the air game is to have the ESFs be able to kill anything in the sky, but nearly nothing on the ground. The liberators should be the air to ground capable aircraft, but have little defense to ESFs. And galaxies should remain pretty much as is. Right now ESFs are too strong in air to ground, and liberators are too strong in air to air.

As for surface to air, they went way over the top with giving far too many tools to ground forces to deal with air. They did this because ESFs were far too effective against the ground. Nerf ESF's capabilities against the ground and then revert all the buffs given to ground against the air, and you again have a balanced game.

The purpose of ESFs should be to clear the way for galaxies and liberators, and to eliminate the galaxies and liberators of the opposition. They should be ineffective against the ground. And the ground shouldn't be so much of a threat against the ESFs. What anti-air the ground has should be most effective against galaxies and liberators, but it should be up to each faction's ESFs to really do that job.

Do this and we'll have a balanced air game. Until then, the air game is going to be a joke.

Originally Posted by phungus

5) HUD and minimap designed for 2D ground combat:

Every bit of tactical information you get in the air is designed to engage ground targets. You can still infer things based on sound and other information, but there is no piece of the HUD or anything the developers have created that in any way shape or form would be useful to the A2A pilot - it all must be inferred based on other game mechanics specifically designed for ground fighting. Even scout radar in an ESF is utterly and completely useless against enemy air, though it is downright awesome for finding and engaging ground targets.

So true. The Heads Up Display for futuristic nanite aircraft combat is worse than what humans actually had in World War Two. At least in World War Two, pilots could use their eyes to track air targets many kilometers away. In this game, our eyes are stuck facing precisely forward with no way to track the enemy, with no way to even see the enemy even a few hundred meters away from us. Let alone the avionics available in Vietnam, let alone the avionics available today. Its a complete joke of an oversight.

That's giving the PS2 team (the OP would say Higby) a pass for having modeled no momentum or air resistance, let alone the concepts of lift and drag. How hard would it be to model in momentum? I mean seriously I remember doing awesome out of dimension turns in Wing Commander 1 in 1990. The most awesome fighter battles in Battlestar Galactica has Kara Thrace pulling off some crazy maneuver with her ship traveling a completely different direction than she's shooting. Completely possible in Wing Commander 1 from 1990, completely impossible in Planetside 2 in 2013. If modeling how air affects flight is too hard (every flight sim ever has done it), at least do this. Unforgivable omission imo.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by phungus

Everything, literally every game mechanic in PS2 from the HUD, minimap and game information, to random % chances of weapon failures, to weapon effectiveness, and even capped off by experience earning and K/D ratios that the game records encourages and downright forces players who want to play an Air to Air role to abandon that gameplay and instead focus on killing ground targets. Litererally every mechanic and piece of this game does that.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[DaPope]

A very well put together and informative post. It certainly does highlight a lot of the areas where the air combat is lacking.

PS2 doesn't have a helicopter, instead they created the ESF and other air to fill that role. Traditionally a helicopter does not engage in air to air combat. If you look at the current ESF in that light it certainly does fill that role more than that of a traditional fighter. The most effective role is that of flying low altitude, anti armor, anti infantry. The same also is true for the Liberator, you don't see many high altitude effective Liberator teams, those who are effective often are found flying under 300m (so infantry can render), moving fast, and quickly rolling to engage air and ground. Despite having an extremely large area for engagements the aircraft (ESF/Lib/Gal) all act and have the same effect as helicopters in any other game.

[Roderick]

A funny thing reading the request for a 50% A2A missile fail rate. There is a bug in the game currently where the missile will confirm an enemy ESF hit in your HUD and do zero damage to the enemy fighter. As long as that bug remains, this request has been somewhat fulfilled. Not at 50% though, but at a 5% chance over a few rounds of reloads and dogfights.

[Illtempered]

The other night I kept getting one-shotted by a certain Lib crew. So I switched to all A2A and with a couple other buddies in Scythes we started tearing the air up. No way in hell were 50% of my lock-on missiles missing their targets. That number is just bs....

It must just be our OP Scythes >:/

Edit to quote: "When I fly A2A it's almost always MAXs that kill me"

You're flying too low and getting too greedy. When I fly A2A it's almost ALWAYS enemy ESFs or Libs that kill me. Working as intended.

Edit to mention one more thing: You seem to have issues with the rotary cannon killing enemy air? I know plenty of enemy pilots who completely own me with those things....but they're not effective against air, nah.

[Rothnang]

I don't have the 50% duds problem either, though I have fired missiles that hit the target and did no damage. For me that's maybe 1 in 20 missiles though, not 1 in 2.

I generally agree that right now there isn't much value to going full A2A. The Rotary gun is the primary tool in a dogfight since you can't lock a missile onto a decent pilot, he'll rip you in half with his gun while you're still locking on.

IMO the weapons on fighters need to be more role specific. Currently Rotary + Rocket Pods does absolutely everything to a satisfactory degree, Tanks, Infantry, Liberators, other ESFs, you name it, you can fight it, and with the natural advantage of being the fastest unit in the game that all ESFs share that makes them an incredibly powerful unit.

AA is too all-encompassing currently. It should be powerful, but especially infantry based AA should exist specifically to defend infantry from close in attacks from the air, not to just lock down a whole region.

I think there is plenty of reason to shoot at air targets. Liberators can net you in the realm of 2000 XP, and fighters around 1000 with the extreme menace kills and vehicle XP bonuses. That's not something you say no to given an opportunity.

[Neutral Calypso]

I disagree with the person who said you shouldn't be able to bail.

I do think the system should be rigged to award the kill to the last person who damaged your ESF if you bail and die, but I don't think simply disallowing bailing should work.

When I bail it is because I am trying to survive, not merely deny the enemy exp. This is why I have lately equipped my ESF with auto-repair and fly as a light assault. If I am about to die, I bail, and find a sundy to C4.

[Rothnang]

Yea, I agree there, if you die from fall damage after jumping out of an ESF people need to get XP for killing you, but it makes no sense to deny people the ability to make a legitimate escape from a doomed vehicle. If your tank is about to blow up and you don't think you have a chance to save it you also get out and run.

[Boildown]

If they bail, crash, deconstruct when that's put back in, accept the queue to move to a new continent, or whatever other way they find to avoid being killed in their vehicle, it should award the kill to whoever did the most damage, and award assists according to percentage of damage done.

[Neutral Calypso]

If they don't actually -die- no one should get credit for killing them. Credit for destroying their vehicle, sure. But if I abandon ship and survive no one should be getting credit for killing me.