Your Thoughts on Air vs Ground Balance.

SolLeks · 2013-05-06, 02:56 PM

Hello, A lot of you have probably seen my opinions / rants on the offical forums about air and ground balance. I do try to keep a fairly un biased view about it however since I have about the same amount of time playing medic as I fly (and more so ground stuff if you count the others).

Now, With out me getting into a rant or posting a long lots of stuff that may influence the thread one way or the other, what are your all thoughts on Post GU8 Air and Ground Balance?

If you have ideas to fix it as well, feel free to post them, and If you all want my opinion I can share it via request, but I would like the thread to at least start out with as little bias as possible (I personally am a bit biased to air, but I try not to be as much as possible.)

~~Main GU8 changes that effect air~~

Max Flack and Kenict armor buff
Tank Armor buff.

Landtank · 2013-05-06, 03:05 PM

My only gripes are that I feel the Skyguard and Bursters roles are reversed.

Make the skyguard a long range AA that can deny a large area of space, and make the burster more close range airspace denial. This would help with rendering too.

The only times I really die in an ESF are when I'm stupid and I don't strafe, aka hovering. Sometimes it gets ridiculous, but usually moving quickly and hugging the ground does it for me.

I mostly drive a tank, and the only time I get killed by an ESF are when I'm an idiot and forget to re-equip my Vanguard shield, or park ontop of a hill alone. I think I've killed more aircraft than I've been killed by.

As infantry I honestly can't remember the last time I got killed by rocket pods and I thought it was unfair, I think it's a perfect balance right now.

BlaxicanX · 2013-05-06, 03:09 PM

I still hate ESF's. Rocket pods are the only thing in the game that I feel cheated when killed by- moreso than any Max or shotgun.

Still, I don't really know what can be done about it. Air has been nerfed quite a lot over the past few months, their weapons weakened, a massive saturation of anti-air weaponry on the market, a fat bounty placed on most pilots' heads due to the new stacking exp system. The biggest problem that I've noticed is that ESF's are completely ineffectual in any large battles due to all the AA available at any time; sadly, that's actually a respite, because when you're away from a bunch of AA, ESF's are so damn annoying and merciless.

I don't want to see ESF's get nerfed anymore, frankly. They're a step away from becoming totally useless. I'd rather just tolerate how they are now, in that case.

Chaff · 2013-05-06, 03:15 PM

All-in-all, I think the balance is pretty fair. Bursters only really become effective when you get 3 (or more) going simultaneously. At that point, it becomes pretty brutal if they all key-in on your air vehicle at the same time. Out in the relative open, a decent (or better) ESF pilot will always win a 1-on-1 with a Burster. Really no contest - as it should be. If an ESF falls into a peekaboo game 1-v-1 with a Max popping in & out of a building, the ESF should still prevail, but they're not being a smart pilot at that point.

Skyguards are hardly worth the effort & far harder to hide, evade, or use vs skilled pilot(s)..

Davelantor · 2013-05-06, 03:46 PM

I am an ESF pilot, so here is my point of view.
I agree ESF is kinda useless in big fights because of the sheer number of AA maxes.

I dont have a problem with lockons, people are very stupid when it comes to using lockon AA's (they start to try locking on the moment they see you half way across the map).

I would say i am a decent pilot, and just for the fun and challange factor, i keep my self close to ground as much as my skills allow, going under structures, trees ... etc. ... so most of the times i get killed is because i am flying on weapons range of unguided rockets, mines and tanks shells. Which is not something you usualy expect from an ESF.

I would say the ESF are balanced enough that its still fun to fly them but you dont get shot down like butterflies on a snow storm if you dont expose your self, sneak around and time your shots and exposures with your flares and use landscape.

My problem is however is with roadkilling. How i play is not for kills, but doing roadkills used to be just fun for me, specially agianst an AA max nests. They have nerfed it so much that you cant roadkill from normal height. Cants describe how stupid it feels when you pass right through a max and he is not even aware.

Landtank · 2013-05-06, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Chaff

All-in-all, I think the balance is pretty fair. Bursters only really become effective when you get 3 (or more) going simultaneously. At that point, it becomes pretty brutal if they all key-in on your air vehicle at the same time. Out in the relative open, a decent (or better) ESF pilot will always win a 1-on-1 with a Burster. Really no contest - as it should be. If an ESF falls into a peekaboo game 1-v-1 with a Max popping in & out of a building, the ESF should still prevail, but they're not being a smart pilot at that point.

Skyguards are hardly worth the effort & far harder to hide, evade, or use vs skilled pilot(s)..

The problem with winning a fight against a burster MAX is that it can be rezzed, and then it's back to square one. If you don't win that fight, even if it's only 10% of the time, you don't get to come back.

maradine · 2013-05-06, 03:48 PM

I'd like to see the comparative effectiveness of the Skyguard and the Burster swapped. Other than that, I'm very happy on both sides of the equation.

Ghoest9 · 2013-05-06, 03:52 PM

I think the balance is good.

I still wish that ESF were built for A2A intead of A2G
But the current set up doesnt mean infantry have to spend 75% of their efforts in avoiding air which is good.

phungus · 2013-05-06, 04:00 PM

-Balance is pretty good right now (though AA MAX range does seem a bit too far)

-MAXes in general have become too multipurpose, they are now excellent at AI and AA duty and fair at AV duty with the new MAX AV weapons. I don't really have an issue with the AA MAX from a balance perspective (though the AA MAX is my nemesis since I spend most of my time flying), I just think the MAX in general is too good in general for it's price and I'm starting to see them being spammed everywhere.

-I still think ESF secondaries are not needed and make it impossible to balance ESFs in general. I would be fine if all I had was a rotary and so did everyone else in the sky.

-The rotary is too good all around, it should sacrifice it's AV potency to encourage more deviation in nose guns, also the default nose guns could use a little more AV damage to make them a viable choice.

-I roll my ESF almost exclusively with A2Am and a rotary. AA MAXes get me killed more then half the time when I die in A2A engagements. I don't know if this is a bad thing or not, this is a multiplayer game, it's not about dueling. This is noteworthy though because I really think the current situation with ground AA actually encourages rocket podding.

Fenrys · 2013-05-06, 04:21 PM

Air zergs are too powerful and there is no counter once they reach critical mass.

Skyguard needs an accuracy and range buff. More projectile speed, less cone of fire, increased maximum detonation range.

Dedicated AARL should lock on faster.

New players need better AA options in their default starter gear.

wasdie · 2013-05-06, 04:31 PM

As primarily a ground pounder I have no real complaints about the air right now. Every time I step into my reaver I feel I get chewed up by MAXs way too quickly. So maybe those are a bit too powerful.

I haven't been up against a strong air zerg for quite some time. Maybe because when I play I'm with my outfit and we always have a lot of AA.

Chaff · 2013-05-06, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Landtank

The problem with winning a fight against a burster MAX is that it can be rezzed, and then it's back to square one. If you don't win that fight, even if it's only 10% of the time, you don't get to come back.

IN theory, you are absolutely correct. But, you can FLY AWAY & REPAIR YOURSELF. A max can't do this. So, it's more equal than you chose to point out. I'm a shit ass pilot, so I rarely fly. Ergo, I am biased towards infantry.

The point I really wanted to counter you with, is that when I'm outdoors as a Max, I almost never get revived. I'll lay there a good 5 minutes - in the middle of a road - friendly Sundy within spitting distance. It's weird. Usually, when I'm AA I tend to be Lone Wolf. When an ESF does what he should, I have to wait to respawn a Max - just like an ESF, MBT, SUNDY,....

Also, I often pull an AA (unplanned) because NO ONE is protecting the Sundy I chose to respawn at. It seems like defending a Sundy is the shortest life span (on avererage) of any scenario I roll as an AA Max. I think when an ESF pilot smells blood bad enough, they too often can not be denied.

If a pilot can avoid tunnel vision rage - they simply afterburner away & repair. As a Max, I feel I obligated to hold-point. A Max is disposable. If I can slow the tide or hold a bit (3 kills before I die), I feel I served my role well enough. Outdoors, I almost never get revived. When I do, It's usually Outfit, and all the regular infantry softies seem to get rezed by medics first. We need Medic & Engie to be revived fully. I think that''s whay Medics rez sofies first & foremeost.

When I die as a Max, I usually have to wait for my timer to replay as a Max - just like a vehicle does.

.

Lonehunter · 2013-05-06, 06:18 PM

"Air vs Ground" is a pretty broad topic. Without more elaboration of what specific types of combat, vehicles, or equipment you're referring to it's hard to form an opinion.

Only thing I feel strongly about is rear damage to tanks. 90% of my playtime I"m airborne, and maybe 1% in a tank. It's WAY too easy to kill a tank with a single salvo of rockets, and recently all I use it Rotary/AA, and it's still too easy.

ChipMHazard · 2013-05-06, 08:49 PM

The air vs ground balance seems to be rather hit or miss. Air either dominates or has little space to operate. Ideally air would always have a role to play even when the enemy has a heavy AA presence.
ESFs are so versatile and powerful that they dominate any open battlefield unless there's enough AA present on the ground to more or less completely remove them from the area.

I agree with the Skyguard and Burster MAX needing to be swapped when it comes to effectiveness at range.

I do believe that something has to be done to limit the versatility of the ESF and I do not personally believe that just adding on more choices for the secondary slot, as Higby has mentioned being a future possibility, is going to help in this matter.
There's no real choice required when customizing your ESF.

I'm fine with how Liberators feel when it comes to balance, although again it's very easy to lock them out of a zone when your side has enough AA.

Tom Peters · 2013-05-06, 08:54 PM

I fly all the freaking time, and I consider myself a pretty good pilot.

Sometimes, I feel like such an asshole because of how easy it is for me to destroy a ground target, be it a vehicle or some poor infantry that found his way into my rocket spam.

Tanks have next to no chance by themselves and pretty much die in one barrage from behind.