GU13 Esamir Map Change feedback

Roy Awesome · 2013-07-17, 12:30 AM

Twitch's youtube uploader isn't working, so here is my feedback video:

http://www.twitch.tv/royawesome/c/2587897

OctavianAXFive · 2013-07-17, 02:34 AM

Roy, here are my notes I took while watching your video. Excellent analysis!

Eli Forest: Use smoke to cross the bridge? If the infantry cover is clustered in the back then I would fire a ton of smoke rounds into them to force them out/cover your approach. Problem is, everyone uses the bloody thermal sight.

As for the road down the middle being a deathtrap, I think that's the point. You have to control the base if you want access to the road.

I agree about the ramp up from the center road. It could use an L shaped wall blocking the view from the defender's side of the base. A bit more cover along the sniper alley would be nice as well, though I kind of like how open that is in the center.

Nott Substation:
I actually quite like the fact that Nott Substation does not have any infantry cover immediately around the point. All of the fighting has to happen amongst the buildings and the people taking the point need to nut up or shut up with some smoke grenades.

I do think that a little meager sanctuary of cover should be set up immediately around the point to protect the lucky ones who make it to the point from infantry fire and aircraft. I didn't feel the Octagon was that bad in terms of cover.

Sunderer garages:
You do have an excellent point about the garages.

My thinking originally was similar in that I figured that the garage was too "easy" a place knowing the attackers will park their Sunderer there but I figured it was better than letting it get chopped up by a Liberator or ESFs.

However you make a good point about the defense going both ways, something I didn't look too closely at. But ultimately I don't think it will be too big a problem. The garage is beneficial mostly to small-medium size battles (1-24, 25-48) in that it really does provide a good defense
against air units and for the most part light assaults (in a small fight where individuals can be kept track of). In multi-platoon engagements I think your concerns, while real, are mitigated by the fact that large forces are probably going to bring enough party buses and AA to park Sunderers in other key locations around the bases.

It's almost like that Sunderer garage is an advanced foothold in a large fight. It's not the first place you'd want to park your Sunderer but once you've pushed in, parking a Sunderer in there is very convenient. Assuming you don't get your ass kicked the logistical advantage of deploying in such close proximity to the point is nothing to sneeze at.

Tech Plant:
100% right about the tech plant. A biolab in the middle would be an ideal substitute. It's amazing they did all this great work on the continent and didn't change that. Though I admit I didn't even think of it when I posted my feedback.

In general I'm just a wee tired of the same copy-paste buildings but I understand them. I look forward to some variety at long last.

You're absolutely right about the Rink.

ringring · 2013-07-17, 04:12 AM

It's funny. You and I have seen the same things and drawn the opposite conclusions.

You see the added cover between bases (rocks and trees) and conclude that they're trying to make it more of a tank fighting continent.ie more cover to hide behind.

I see the added cover and I conclude that they're trying to make it less of a tank fighting continent. ie more cover for infantry to hide behind (and with bases close enough to phutzerg between).

Esamir is supposed to be the tankers continent, amerish the anti-tankers continent. The acid test for me will be how is travel? Do the terrain features make you go around the houses to get from A to B as on Amerish?

On Esamir, it's often the case that you don't own Eisa and therefore bring an MBT from the warpgate to the fight often requires a longer drive. I hope it's not now even longer.

However, I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

Going back to watch the rest of your vid ...........

Edit**
I don't agree that if bases are bigger that it necessarily a good thing. Making the smaller outposts a bit bigger isnb't an issue but I think some of them are now too big. They may well be suitable for 48x48 or 64x64 but mostly the fights will be way smaller and that means whoever fights there will do a lot of running - that is one of my two bugbears with Amp stations.

It's all very well to have bases that work well in large fights, my point is that they have to work well in small fights too. Amp Stations and Tech Plants don't, Bio Labs do. I've had some really great Bio Lab fights that were 5x5 and the layouts meant that the points of conflict within the dome were easy to get to for either side. I've also been in many large fights in Bio Labs.

I also would like the designs and placement of object not to seem so random. Too often the enemy came come at you from any direction at any time making deaths and kills more random rather than planned.

diLLa · 2013-07-17, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by ringring

It's funny. You and I have seen the same things and drawn the opposite conclusions.

You see the added cover between bases (rocks and trees) and conclude that they're trying to make it more of a tank fighting continent.ie more cover to hide behind.

I see the added cover and I conclude that they're trying to make it less of a tank fighting continent. ie more cover for infantry to hide behind (and with bases close enough to phutzerg between).

Esamir is supposed to be the tankers continent, amerish the anti-tankers continent. The acid test for me will be how is travel? Do the terrain features make you go around the houses to get from A to B as on Amerish?

On Esamir, it's often the case that you don't own Eisa and therefore bring an MBT from the warpgate to the fight often requires a longer drive. I hope it's not now even longer.

Going back to watch the rest of your vid ...........

Edit**
I don't agree that if bases are bigger that it necessarily a good thing. Making the smaller outposts a bit bigger isnb't an issue but I think some of them are now too big. They may well be suitable for 48x48 or 64x64 but mostly the fights will be way smaller and that means whoever fights there will do a lot of running - that is one of my two bugbears with Amp stations.

I also would like the designs and placement of object not to seem so random. Too often the enemy came come at you from any direction at any time making deaths and kills more random rather than planned.

Amp stations are pretty nice to fight at as a smaller squad in my opinion, especially if you utilise the tunnels to get onto the walls. More space to move around gives more tactical options. The new bases in general look less open, thus more predictable, thus more tactical for squad play.

ringring · 2013-07-17, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by diLLa

Amp stations are pretty nice to fight at as a smaller squad in my opinion, especially if you utilise the tunnels to get onto the walls. More space to move around gives more tactical options. The new bases in general look less open, thus more predictable, thus more tactical for squad play.

Yea, predictable is good because as you say it will lead to tactical play.

But Amp Stations are my bug bear, and did I say I didn't like Amp Stations?

Snipefrag · 2013-07-17, 09:36 AM

Esamir cant be a tank continent, as Roy said.. Only one side can have tanks !

Mastachief · 2013-07-17, 11:06 AM

Do we know if the domes will be coming as so many of these new designs are wide open to air abuse.

ringring · 2013-07-17, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

Esamir cant be a tank continent, as Roy said.. Only one side can have tanks !

It is supposed to be the tank continent now! Tanks are available in the warpgates and the drives aren't that long, you can pretty much go in a straight line because of the fairly open terrain, unlike Amerish.

However I don't mind the idea of swapping a Bio for a Tech but I think it would be a little bit more involved than that.

Qwan · 2013-07-17, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Do we know if the domes will be coming as so many of these new designs are wide open to air abuse.

I tickered with them on the test server, but to tell you the truth they remind me of the dropship center in PS1, the one were you had to take down the ajacent bases to bring down the dome. I cant for the life of me remember the base and continent but I do believe it was a drop ship center with a dome over it. I dont know how I feel about the shielded domes over the tech barracks area, I mean its a good idea to promote troop fights but you know the fly boys are gonna whine about not being able to join in the fun. Also the shield only cover the top so tanks and agile pilots can still join in the fun. I dont know I have mixed feelings about it.

Mastachief · 2013-07-17, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Qwan

I tickered with them on the test server, but to tell you the truth they remind me of the dropship center in PS1, the one were you had to take down the ajacent bases to bring down the dome. I cant for the life of me remember the base and continent but I do believe it was a drop ship center with a dome over it. I dont know how I feel about the shielded domes over the tech barracks area, I mean its a good idea to promote troop fights but you know the fly boys are gonna whine about not being able to join in the fun. Also the shield only cover the top so tanks and agile pilots can still join in the fun. I dont know I have mixed feelings about it.

Capital dome shields.

I saw the recent ones but now they are missing. Flyboys imo should land and walk in as should tankers. Proper segregated combat for bases/outposts.

Fights for bases / outposts are boring if vehicles can camp the points or even the entrances to the points.

A disclaimer for the children. I'm comfortable with all methods of fighting is PS2 i am not some sort of infantry only person. I merely seek balanced combat over territory whereby the defender of a fortification actually has a substantial benefit rather than a mild convenience.

Roy Awesome · 2013-07-17, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Do we know if the domes will be coming as so many of these new designs are wide open to air abuse.

Higby dropped some knowledge in my stream: They will be the amp station benefit but that didn't make the test build

ChipMHazard · 2013-07-17, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Roy Awesome

Higby dropped some knowledge in my stream: They will be the amp station benefit but that didn't make the test build

Hmmm. I hope they know what they are doing. I wrote my concerns to Reachcast back when they were discussing dome shields. In short, having the shields be tied to a facility could end up being a snowball effect. Especially if they can't be taken down on each base. I just have the feeling that it might become too hard to stop a cont lock or attack a cont that's been locked once one faction owns the shields.

Mastachief · 2013-07-17, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Hmmm. I hope they know what they are doing. I wrote my concerns to Reachcast back when they were discussing dome shields. In short, having the shields be tied to a facility could end up being a snowball effect. Especially if they can't be taken down on each base. I just have the feeling that it might become too hard to stop a cont lock or attack a cont that's been locked once one faction owns the shields.

Yeh, this was my immediate thought. IMO they should be perma feature that has a GEN but the gen only powers if they allow aircraft to pass through not the weapons fire blocking ability.

NewSith · 2013-07-17, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Yeh, this was my immediate thought. IMO they should be perma feature that has a GEN but the gen only powers if they allow aircraft to pass through not the weapons fire blocking ability.

I just really want to quote myself, "domes aren't even close to being a " solution", because they do not provide any advantage at all to defenders". As I stated earlier - why it is so hard to create an air-shielded path from a spawnroom X to a building A that ajoins Building B with a control point in it, or is connected via an enclosed bridge escapes me.

ringring · 2013-07-18, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

I just really want to quote myself, "domes aren't even close to being a " solution", because they do not provide any advantage at all to defenders". As I stated earlier - why it is so hard to create an air-shielded path from a spawnroom X to a building A that ajoins Building B with a control point in it, or is connected via an enclosed bridge escapes me.

Absolutely.

A few of the outposts have two decks (as shown in Roy's flyby) why doesn't the lower deck have the capture point rather than the upper exposed one?