Further repercussions to the ESF vertical thrust nerf.

[snafus]

http://www.twitch.tv/planetside2/b/446321808
So after the recent command center, Higby again stated they wanted to tie Fuel pods to vertical thrust. Higby also went into on how they are trying to break the mold of reliance on the reverse maneuver for pilots to be successful. I wanted to create this thread as a warning to the devs and the community that they will be making a large mistake.

By forcing players to utilize the fuel pods to have current vertical thrust they will again create a scenario that will dictate A2A wins. Simply put It, doesn't matter what new and cool guns SOE tries to sell us if the fuel tanks give 75% improved vertical thrust you won't be hitting that pilot. This change will not only create an even larger gap between ace pilots and new or bad players. But will also reflect poorly on SOE sales as word will get out that you won't be able to compete in A2A combat without that improved vertical thrust.

Now on the point of sales I warn SOE now not to go the route of greed. If by chance they already knew that the Fuel pod reliance would take place I have a sinking feeling they will attempt to sell new Fuel tanks to us. I warn you SOE that that kind of maneuvering will be another PR blunder as the flying community will not be happy to be nerfed to that degree. Then be asked to pay another 7$ to return to a competitive state.

I ask that players take time and thoughtfully think out on how these new changes will affect the overall balance between setups. I truly do feel that if the nerf takes place, and to obtain current vertical thrust we will have to use fuel tanks. There will be another cycle of reliance on one setup to stay competitive among the top tier of flyers. And by reducing vertical thrust by such a vast degree you will force players to lose options to stay relevant in the current flying scene.

Do you feel the changes will force reliance on fuel tanks? Or is this the correct ways to make rock/paper/scissors for air combat? Please share your thoughts on the matter and try to keep the feed back constructive.

[HereticusXZ]

I think I'm confused... So We'll need fuel pods in order to perform a effective maneuver? As opposed to just having every ESF already be able to perform it regardless of the ESF equipment?

I could very possibly be misunderstanding the effect of the whole "Nerf" because I'm a Tanker, I don't fly much, but with that said... As I understand it portion of this ESF change is defining the vertical thrust: Default vanilla ESF can still perform these crazy maneuvers but not with as much power behind it to make it faster. ESF with the fuel pods and the proper airframe can do the same maneuver but with greater force, so it's much more effective/responsive? Do I have that right?

I know as a Tanker if you want to win a tank fight you go with a AP Tank Destroyer build, barring if the enemy Tank is talented, your usually going to win a Tank duel. Isn't it the same principle with ESF? If you want to win in the air-game then you run a A2A build

[snafus]

Originally Posted by HereticusXZ

I think I'm confused... So We'll need fuel pods in order to perform a effective maneuver? As opposed to just having every ESF already be able to perform it regardless of the ESF equipment?

I could very possibly be misunderstanding the effect of the whole "Nerf" because I'm a Tanker, I don't fly much, but with that said... As I understand it portion of this ESF change is defining the vertical thrust: Default vanilla ESF can still perform these crazy maneuvers but not with as much power behind it to make it faster. ESF with the fuel pods and the proper airframe can do the same maneuver but with greater force, so it's much more effective/responsive? Do I have that right?

I know as a Tanker if you want to win a tank fight you go with a AP Tank Destroyer build, barring if the enemy Tank is talented, your usually going to win a Tank duel through a combination of firepower and the right use of faction specific abilities. Shouldn't it be the same with ESF? a ESF with a A2A build will naturally destroy all but the most talented pilots?

No the nerf will only reduce vertical thrust. That means if you are in a hover position you will now move X amount slower then before. The issue comes in when using fuel tanks will be the only competitive option for A2A usage. As A2AM and all of the new weapons will be far less effective due to their inability to track pilots who utilize the fuel pods. It isn't a matter of A2A killing A2G, it is one aspect of A2A that beats all other setups. Which is supposedly what the dev team is trying to stop with the nerf to vertical thrust.

[phungus]

Just to play devils advocate :


It does make sense. You sacrifice firepower for manueverability or vice versa. Forcing aces to decide whether they want to give up their pods or locusts for more manueverability - seems like a reasonable trade off to me. It will also allow less skilled players who haven't mastered Vthrust flight and it's dodging abilities to take more firepower (namely locusts, A2Am, or Coyotes) which will allow them to bring their combat efficacy up without needing the 100s of hours it takes to really master Vthrust hover dueling and dodge manuevers, since aces who have mastered that manueverability will be taking AB tanks.

If you want more firepower, you're going to have to give up that manueverability which will put you at a distinct disadvantage against other A2A focused ESFs who take tanks and have the skill + experience to use them.

[finder]

"Do you feel the changes will force reliance on fuel tanks?"
I have a feeling that it will, as right now every ESF can do the RM with out AB pods. AB pods just allow pilots to pull of the maneuver longer/often.

meaning that if I go with something other then AB pods I can still pull of most of if not all the maneuvers someone with AB pods can do, only I have less time to use my after burners. giving me some, some, chance to turn the tables in a fight if that pilot did not down me already.

Which leads me to ask for an A2A load out why use any of the new weapons if AB pods give you that much of an advantage to out maneuver me, making my pretty new A2A weapon(s) useless?

[phungus]

Originally Posted by finder

Which leads me to ask for an A2A load out why use any of the new weapons if AB pods give you that much of an advantage to out maneuver me, making my pretty new A2A weapon(s) useless?

Because locusts and rocket pods drastically increase your firepower. Against 90% of the ESFs I'd engage that will be very benificial, only against the other top ESF pilots will AB tanks be critical in dueling situations, and arguably also in 2v1 or 3v1 Ace vs competent pilots where the dodging abilities of AB tanks will shine (but these types of engagements are really alot like ace vs ace hoverduels anyway), in fact locusts may be superior in the 2v1s simply because your TTK is very important in these engagements.

Currently, outside of flying a reaver, or when I'm flying drunk, I never consider AB tanks. Rocket pods or A2Am are simply superior. With this change AB tanks will likely be more of a real choice. Especially in regard to the choice of locusts vs AB tanks, that's going to be a really tough choice for me every time.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by phungus

Just to play devils advocate :


It does make sense. You sacrifice firepower for manueverability or vice versa. Forcing aces to decide whether they want to give up their pods or locusts for more manueverability - seems like a reasonable trade off to me. It will also allow less skilled players who haven't mastered Vthrust flight and it's dodging abilities to take more firepower (namely locusts, A2Am, or Coyotes) which will allow them to bring their combat efficacy up without needing the 100s of hours it takes to really master Vthrust hover dueling and dodge manuevers, since aces who have mastered that manueverability will be taking AB tanks.

If you want more firepower, you're going to have to give up that manueverability which will put you at a distinct disadvantage against other A2A focused ESFs who take tanks and have the skill + experience to use them.

Again the big issue is the firepower will be useless in lesser skilled pilots hands due to the nature of the A2A combat. They simply won't be able to utilize these weapons when engaged with a veteran pilot using fuel pods. They will be the only choice for true air dominance and will again force a trend.

[phungus]

The more I think about it the more I like the balance this will create. Hell if I had my way I'd make it so you chose between afterburners or a secondary, but I'd buff the hell out of Rocket Pods (well really just put them back to pre nerf levels).

From what I'm hearing I'm not longer at risk of losing my reverse manuever, in fact it sounds like fully certed AB tanks might even buff that plus Vthrust dodging. I think AB tanks should get some kind of advantage, and I have no problem with the added firepower of a secondary weapon removes some manueverability.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by phungus

The more I think about it the more I like the balance this will create. Hell if I had my way I'd make it so you chose between afterburners or a secondary, but I'd buff the hell out of Rocket Pods (well really just put them back to pre nerf levels).

From what I'm hearing I'm not longer at risk of losing my reverse manuever, in fact it sounds like fully certed AB tanks might even buff that plus Vthrust dodging. I think AB tanks should get some kind of advantage, and I have no problem with the added firepower of a secondary weapon removes some manueverability.

There lies the issue as A2G ESF will now be near incompetent as they will have a much harder time avoiding ground based fire. And there will only be one viable A2A engagement option, fuel tanks. They are not adding depth but taking depth away from the flying community. If they left vertical thrust alone and gave fuel tanks their advantage it would leave secondary options more available between ESF. AS the fuel tanks wouldn't give such a massive advantage over other setups.

They stated they wanted to see an end of pilots relying on one aspect to carry dog fighting. They have simply created another setup that will be mandatory for ESF pilots to compete in the air. All of these new secondary weapons will mean nothing when your opponent has potentially 75% better vertical thrust.

[PredatorFour]

You make a valid point Snafus and i agree completely. However, i'd wager that a good pilot with locusts can down an ace purely because of the spam factor with a large clip weapon (afford to miss and still kill) even if they're flying all over the place thrusting away.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You make a valid point Snafus and i agree completely. However, i'd wager that a good pilot with locusts can down an ace purely because of the spam factor with a large clip weapon (afford to miss and still kill) even if they're flying all over the place thrusting away.

I end the majority of my fights without being touched by my opponents. And the fact that I will have a potentially superior vertical thrust he will have a very hard time keeping a bead on me. Aim will still be a factor as many a ESF pilot simply cannot keep rounds on target, large magazine or not.

[Rolfski]

The hole idea behind this is for mediocre pilots to rely on lock-on missiles in dogfights while every decent pilot will definitely cert into afterburner.

In theory this could work but needs very careful balancing.

Lock-on missiles need to be good enough to give a mediocre pilot something of a chance because loosing out on manoeuvrability is a very big deal in this game. Not only against air but against ground as well.

[Boildown]

You will say anything to ForumSide your way into keeping the reverse maneuver. I just hope they act on the merits, not the vocal minority.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Boildown

You will say anything to ForumSide your way into keeping the reverse maneuver. I just hope they act on the merits, not the vocal minority.

What?

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by phungus

If you want more firepower, you're going to have to give up that manueverability which will put you at a distinct disadvantage against other A2A focused ESFs who take tanks and have the skill + experience to use them.

Indeed, I never mastered the Reverse Manuver, so anything that reduces its need as the end-all-be-all skill for Air combat is alright in my book.

Originally Posted by phungus

Especially in regard to the choice of locusts vs AB tanks, that's going to be a really tough choice for me every time.

I KNOW right?
I really wish I could see how effective the Coyotes are in a real fight, but the only pilot I found to duel on Test was running Stealth 4, so I switched to Locust.

Originally Posted by snafus

Again the big issue is the firepower will be useless in lesser skilled pilots hands due to the nature of the A2A combat. They simply won't be able to utilize these weapons when engaged with a veteran pilot using fuel pods. They will be the only choice for true air dominance and will again force a trend.

Well unless they team up and hit you with all those "OP A2A MISSILES!!!"

...Or somehow manage to kill you with their own debris...
...But that would NEVER happen, would it?