Top players stacking in roflstomp outfits: possible issue?

Rolfski · 2013-10-14, 10:59 AM

One thing that worries me a bit about this game is that the competitive scene is already clearly splitting up the player/outfit base.

Outfit loyalty only goes so far when you're in for the win and I wouldn't be surprised to see all the top players eventually stacked up in only a handful of allstar outfits. Especially because alts allow them to stay with their original outfit.

This might going to hurt the competitive scene as there are probably not going to be enough allstar outfits to have a decent competition. It might actually going to hurt the vanilla game as well as regular outfits might end up avoiding frustrating battles altogether against these future roflstomp outfits.

Not sure how much of an issue this is really going to be and what can be done about it though: Maybe some future NFL-like draft system? ("worse" outfits get to pick players first at the beginning of the season)
I guess we will have to wait to see how this one plays out.

PredatorFour · 2013-10-14, 11:04 AM

Imo its a complete non-issue. There's a thing called 'loyalty', another called 'playing with friends'. While it's inevitable some players will get asked to join a leet outfit (as happened in ps1) i really think that most of the outfits will keep their players. Some of them have been playing together for years and years, why just leave now?

AuntLou · 2013-10-14, 11:28 AM

OK EVERYONE! Listen up! Drop from your outfit, we are going to repick teams!

Rolfski · 2013-10-14, 11:30 AM

Forget about this whole NFL draft system: It's probably a bad example for this game. However, there's no denying that many outfits become friends with each other over time and inter-outfit play and transfers become more fluent. My main BRTD outfit has already regular ops with players from outfits like Vanu Corporation, WASP and INI Elite, playing on our side and some of us have actually alts within these outfits.

The fact that you can create these alts is going to be a killer for this as it allows you to have the best of both worlds. One of our best players (a woman actually) switched to MercenaryS (NC outfit) and had her NC character leveled-up to BR 99 in just a few months. For top players, leveling up a new alt is really no issue and actually fun to do.

Community Clash has already changed their rules in order to prevent this somewhat.

EVILPIG · 2013-10-14, 11:30 AM

Bringing in a smaller competitive scene, where battles have no impact on the actual game is bad. Planetside is all about being out there in the Live environment. Who cares what a 12 v 12 or 48 v 48 results in, when your empire is on the Live server trying to get it done. I opposed the Battledomes in PS1 because they pull players off of the Live servers and that's what a competitive scene will do as well. Some teams that want to be "MLG" like will likely only really log in to practice or play the events. Planetside needs players on the battlefield, participating in the big picture.

As for All Star teams, the competitive scene will cause some of this and it will have some impact as it will draw some players out of outfits specifically to form up these teams. That's only natural. What's concerning is seeing these teams dedicate time to match preparation versus just playing the game. All Star teams happen, they were happening before the competitive scene for PS2 started. For example, Future Crew is comprised of many fragments of PS1 outfits from all three factions, most of which knew each other from Markov and Johari. They joined up with FC so that they had others, who they knew, to play with. So at it's core, FC is actually an All Star team of old school PS1 players and there's nothing wrong with that.

As mentioned above, I'm more concerned with the competitive scene's impact on in game numbers, by any team.

maradine · 2013-10-14, 11:35 AM

Were I to run an outfit (I do), and take significant time and resources to recruit what I feel are the best players (I don't), I'd be pretty pissed about someone telling me we're "too good" and need to be split up. This ain't xbox live - no one's entitled to a fair fight. Even if it means unfortunate roflstomping.

Taramafor · 2013-10-14, 12:04 PM

Speaking as someone that's joined an outfit before even getting on the game (having expressed a strong interest in teamplay) and having led a few times, I have to say it's a little silly to say the enemy is "too good" when you get stomped. When the Vanu push us back with overwhelming numbers I don't say they're too good. When the NC overwhelm us with superior tactics I don't say they're too good. What I tell myself is that we had a fight, we made plans and tried, we failed. Ok, what can I do so it doesn't happen again? Where did those guys at that place suddenly come from? Did we have enough numbers to hold out? These are the questions one must ask themselves after every fight in order to improve themselves. If you're getting stomped on really bad, all I can really say is fall back to the next base and do what you can to get backup over there, in or out of outfit. If you're getting stomped on really bad while the numbers are even however, it may be a case of not being good enough and having to improve your experience, which only comes with time, team work and planning.

That said the competitive scene can leave a bad taste in my mouth. I mean, what's the point of playing Starcraft if you're not as competitive as some others are? Fortunately, we're not stuck on a match making system and can fight any outfit we want at any time, even if it's not an official "match". TRG even participate in friendly fights with other outfits (like say fighting for a hill) but we're also very loyal to each other and play for the fun factor, not just the challenge. And if we come out on top and end up as the most well known outfit because we stomped on all the other outfits that came across us, we would have done it honestly and loyally, always side by side and never getting rid of someone because of competition or because X person is a bad player yet their light hearted mood sends moral through the roof which is a reason people get on. Case in point, it all comes down to the fun factor. However, don't make the mistake of thinking we won't be improving ourselves as part of that fun is trying to best the enemy. Sometimes some outfits might not have the numbers though, in which case, get hunting for members and hope they fit in.

Some do live for the challenge alone though, so if such outfits form up those teams that live only to win then good luck to them. Speaking as someone that knows they're not the best player in the game, I'm not going to complain when they stomp over me. It certainty won't stop me playing PS2 though.

NewSith · 2013-10-14, 12:40 PM

Sorry for my irony, but...

"Top players stacking in roflstomp outfits"
is just a remade
"More players stacking in bigger outfits"

problem that existed earlier. There is no solution to it, because:
A) It's hard to count true skill in a game without matches and with support roles being just as important as combat roles.
B) It's entirely up to the outfits to promote dedication and loyalty to said outfits.
C) Players stacking are not always "top", they up their play during playing with other skilled players. During my GA times I was a typical casual midskill player. Then I joined MCY and ended up in their primary team, since I developed my skill greatly by playing with them. Just like that.

Phrygen · 2013-10-14, 12:48 PM

Well i typed out a long response about this, as i have done on several other sites, but PSU decides to log out users if they don't click the "remember me" after like 5 minutes or something, so i'm just gonna type some ramblings real quick.

So in short, this is a non issue for the live server.

This is an enormous issue for competitive PS2 aka MLG, and MLG 48v48 simply will not work as it stands now. There aren't enough teams of a caliber to be able to compete, and there probably never will be. Eight 48 man teams would require 384 players (not including alternates, so lets just say 600 players), of which at least 96 would have to be Ace level pilots just to have 12 per team.

The players and teams most interested in MLG ignore this issue, and none of them would ever agree to being split up so there is no point in considering it. There is a reason salary caps exist in real sports, and those are sports with hundreds of thousands of potential players that need to fill up much smaller teams. PLanetisde 48 man roster of players on the field doesn't even include alternates. E-sports games with much larger fan/players bases can have trouble creating top notch competitive environments with teams of just 4-8 players.

I've listened or chated with players on the top teams, and when they start talking about being concerned with money earnings and stuff i just nod my head and ignore it. Planetside 2 competitve players will be luck if they earn 50 bucks on average. MLG will happen because as i understand it some promises or contracts were made between SOE and MLG. That said, currently PS2 is simply not viable for MLG, and it has nothing to do with the nexus or optimization or the game itself. The player base, fan base, and competitive player pool is all just too small.

Now i'm sure people will disagree with me and that is fine. From what I can tell a lot of these players on top teams would be happy to just start up competitive now and stomp all their competition. The problem is its incredibly fucking boring to watch, and e-sport competition requires spectators these days in order to be viable. If you dont care about the spectators, go use that competitive scrim site and play to your hearts content.

Best chance that competitive PS2 has is to cut the competition size to 24v24, which would eventually force some of the talent to split up.

Edit: now, i get that this comes off rather negative. I think its possible for PS2 MLG to be great, but i feel that there is really no consideration being taken as to how it will be viable by the most interested and talented parties, and instead the focus is really only on being the best.

Rahabib · 2013-10-14, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Phrygen

... a bunch of completely relevant stuff...

Yep. New teams will have a hard time getting off the ground. So those good competitive players will stack in order to get a chance to play. Those who dont care about MLG, its not as big of an issue, but the high caliber players who want to compete and have good skill are forced to stack.

Cats · 2013-10-14, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Not sure how much of an issue this is really going to be and what can be done about it though: Maybe some future NFL-like draft system? ("worse" outfits get to pick players first at the beginning of the season)
I guess we will have to wait to see how this one plays out.

A lot of the people this would target would legitimately quit the game if they got broken up and had to join some military roleplay outfit

48v48 just isn't realistic. Games like BF2 had tiny teams in comparison (8v8) and it was always a persistent ass pain to make sure everyone was on when they should be for both practice and the actual event.

24v24 is a bit more reasonable, and it will let combined arms aspect of PS2 show through a little. I could see it working like BF2 8v8, where you have one or maybe two dedicated vehicle drivers. Obviously some kind of team resource pool needs to be implemented to put a soft cap on how much can be pulled at any one time.

Wahooo · 2013-10-14, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Forget about this whole NFL draft system: It's probably a bad example for this game. However, there's no denying that many outfits become friends with each other over time and inter-outfit play and transfers become more fluent. My main BRTD outfit has already regular ops with players from outfits like Vanu Corporation, WASP and INI Elite, playing on our side and some of us have actually alts within these outfits.

The fact that you can create these alts is going to be a killer for this as it allows you to have the best of both worlds. One of our best players (a woman actually) (why does gender notable?) switched to MercenaryS (NC outfit) and had her NC character leveled-up to BR 99 in just a few months. For top players, leveling up a new alt is really no issue and actually fun to do.

Actually a lot of what you are saying here is a good thing for the game. There are people you join because you want to play with others at or above your level and be competitive, and there are times you just want to have fun. The whole thing with alts and other empires I think improves the fun in the game. When you are seeing the same names over and over shooting you and notice they are good players you can maybe join them, get on their voice chat and find out they are cool and you want to play with them more. OR you might find out they are dicks and it inspires you to be a bit more serious mode when you run against them in game.

When top players. Those with skill, intelligence and experience come into an outfit it helps everyone in that outfit. They bring things to the table that maybe was lacking and help elevate the skill of those around them, if they are playing just for fun or trying to be competitive. The ability for these players to swap around and spread their knowledge helps the game.

I understand the concern that the top outfits being a magnet for the top players and leaving a vacuum in their wake. But in reality, most of the time it ends up balanced in the long run. Personal issues come up, or people who don't want to join the big guy and enjoy being the underdog. Or, some of the best outfits simply have their own self imposed member caps or turn people away.

AuntLou · 2013-10-14, 02:52 PM

Players combining to make stacked outfits is exactly what SOE wants you to do. The question was asked at SOE Live.. "My outfit only has a handful of guys interested in competitive play. Can we still participate?". The answer was no, join an outfit that does.

So what your proposing as a potential problem is exactly what SOE is encouraging us to do. When I heard this answer at SOE Live I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I was seriously a deer in headlights and looking back wish I would have said something or at least walked out to make a statement. I can't help but believe that most devs have no clue what it's like to be in an outfit with any sense of camaraderie and they just hop around playing random characters half-heartedly. I just don't think they realize how absurd it is for everyone to just leave their outfits just to compete in competitive play. It's not only unfair to these outfits and their faithful members but it could potentially affect the live servers w/ god outfits ruling specific areas and lattice lanes. With that said I have no problem with players naturally migrating to competitive outfits to compete. It's going to happen and your only going to cause problems trying to prevent it. The problem is when SOE tells them that it's their only option if they want to compete.

Good news though is the Community Clash guys are already showing them that a combination of a couple outfits is going might be necessary to get 48 vs. 48 on Nexus. Hope this has changed their minds a bit and shows super power outfits are not the answer.

I've been participating in competitive laser tag since 1998 and this year was the first year they did not run their large corporate run tournament in I believe 20 years. They were up to over 50 teams participating at one point and they couldn't even get 18 this year. They made rules that you have to represent the city you play for. Throughout the years there have been huge problems with stacking AND problems with cities not having enough players to represent. Then they started allowing multiple cities to combine and teams started stacking more and more. They gained some teams by doing this but also lost some teams that couldn't compete skill wise. It all just became a big mess and ultimately became one of the big downfalls of the tournament beyond the fact laser tag business itself is dwindling. So what can I take from this experience and suggest to SOE? It's hard to limit competitions to being one outfit. Combining 2 outfits still might not be the answer. If you end up with a handful of stacked outfits nobody else will want to even try competing. But the thing is I don't have the answer either. Just going to have to sit back and see what happens.

Phrygen · 2013-10-14, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rahabib

Yep. New teams will have a hard time getting off the ground. So those good competitive players will stack in order to get a chance to play. Those who dont care about MLG, its not as big of an issue, but the high caliber players who want to compete and have good skill are forced to stack.

Well, its more like the initial few MLG viable teams already recruited (aka stacked) for the last 8 months, so now anyone who wants to compete with them has to do the same.

The pilot situation is the worst to be honest.

Originally Posted by AuntLou

snip

There is nothing wrong with SOE saying that competitive PS2 will require large teams. If you only have a handful of guys in an outfit and want competitive play, then merge outfits or leave and join another.

MLG cant just have random players and small outfits playing stand in for teams in every match. And the RCCC match where NNG combined with TGWW was a mess afterwards, since TGWW is really TGWW, QRY, at least on member of TEST, etc, and really it was NNG vs Mattherson top pilots. That works in RCCC because its just scrims and show matches. That shit wont fly (pun intended) in MLG.

I'm not even gonna comment on the laser tag thing Mr. Stinson

Varsam · 2013-10-14, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

Were I to run an outfit (I do), and take significant time and resources to recruit what I feel are the best players (I don't), I'd be pretty pissed about someone telling me we're "too good" and need to be split up. This ain't xbox live - no one's entitled to a fair fight. Even if it means unfortunate roflstomping.

This man speaks the truth.