Raw Weapon Data via Higby

[Hamma]

I know this is probably posted somewhere and most have probably already seen it (I blame my new job) but if not Higby posted a bunch of pretty cool data screenshots yesterday.

[ChipMHazard]

I'm mostly surprised at Higby's statement of surprise, unless I'm mistaken as to the reason why he was surprised.

(I know the following only applies to BR100s)
The data for the most part fits my own thoughts and experience with the game, although there are a few things I was suprised to see.

• I would have thought that SMGs were more popular across all classes than they are, obviously the people using them are very proficiency with them. I wasn't surprised to see that the infils are the main users, only real competitive choice if you want full auto capabilities.
• I know the NC are mostly about shotguns, but I didn't think that the Jackhammer was so popular
• I would have thought that more people used shotguns, but then again this simply shows how often a weapon is used and shotguns are situational weapons. Effective when actually used.

Most BR100 players will opt for the best close-medium range option they can find. Versatility is the name of the game. The GR-22 is a good example of this. Great up close, but not as versatile as the Carnage.

I wonder why they showed us the BR100s' weapon trends and not the whole playerbases.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

I wonder why they showed us the BR100s' weapon trends and not the whole playerbases.

Well besides the advantages of removing noobs and clueless people from the data base.
BR 100s are much likely than other players to have access to a wide variety of weapons so you are more likely to be seeing what people choose when all options are open to them.


EDIT: I forgot to mention the obvious reason.

The average kill xp rates with NC weapons are probably much worse than Vanu and TR so they show the top end where skill and experience hide the differences.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Well besides the advantages of removing noobs and clueless people from the data base.
BR 100s are much likely than other players to have access to a wide variety of weapons so you are more likely to be seeing what people choose when all options are open to them.

Good point.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

The average kill xp rates with NC weapons are probably much worse than Vanu and TR so they show the top end where skill and experience hide the differences.

NC so hard done by

[DirtyBird]

No Engineer data Higby?

With the access to more weapons at BR100 its also a good time to get a few extra auraxium medals.

[Falcon_br]

Looks like we need to nerf the jackhammer, or make the mcg good again.
Also, the people use the lasher more then I thought and get an horrible spm with it.
Also, looks like I was right when I told VS heavy weapons are the best heavy weapons on the game.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

Looks like we need to nerf the jackhammer, or make the mcg good again.

Popularity =/= Quality. I don't see how this data shows that the Jackhammer is too good and the MCG isn't good enough.

From what I can see the VS LMGs are the most effective in the hands of BR100s.

[Falcon_br]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Popularity =/= Quality. I don't see how this data shows that the Jackhammer is too good and the MCG isn't good enough.

From what I can see the VS LMGs are the most effective in the hands of BR100s.

I am talking about SPM of those weapon on BR 100 players.
The MCG got a spm lower them almost all VS HMG!
Not even BR 100 players can make it effective!
That is not a problem to the jackhammer.
VS HMG need to be nerfed badly, I always said that.
I also always said the T9 carv was the only viable choice for a TR HA, the msw-r close to second, I was perfectly right.
While we only have two viable weapons to the TR HA, the VS got 4, the NC got 3 and the best close range weapon of the game, the jackhammer. No BR 100 is a match in close range to a NC with a jackhammer. (Use stun grenade).
Two weapon for the TR HA while the other two have 4 is bullshit.
Increasing reload time to nerf the two .75 move ads overpowered VS HMG is not the solution we need right now.

[Emperor Newt]

What I see is that versatility is king and that "niche" weapons are (mostly) neglected even by BR100s who do not even have to care about their cert gain anymore. Some more Lashers here and there would really help a lot but nobody uses it because you get horrible SPM with it and less SPM mostly means getting killed more often then you make kills.So thanks to the ... "wonderful" progression system which almost exclusively centers around getting kills. Seriously, who thought this would be a good idea in the first place?

Also that for most people it's a waste of money to spend sc (or even certs) on many infantry weapons as you wont be using them much anyway. I notice that myself. More then 50% of the stuff I bought is rarely ever used. In the end it comes down to maybe two to three weapons per class. The rest is negligible. Many of them are not bad (well, some are. and reducing the price after people already bought it is not a fix, soe) but you are simply gimping yourself too much in too many situations to carry that gun around much and the situations where you can reach high SPM with those are too few in between to justify the purchase.

PS: Do we know about the time-frame the data was gathered?

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

• I am talking about SPM of those weapon on BR 100 players.
• The MCG got a spm lower them almost all VS HMG!
• Not even BR 100 players can make it effective!
• That is not a problem to the jackhammer.
• VS HMG need to be nerfed badly, I always said that.
• I also always said the T9 carv was the only viable choice for a TR HA, the msw-r close to second, I was perfectly right.
• While we only have two viable weapons to the TR HA, the VS got 4, the NC got 3 and the best close range weapon of the game, the jackhammer. No BR 100 is a match in close range to a NC with a jackhammer. (Use stun grenade).
• Increasing reload time to nerf the two .75 move ads overpowered VS HMG is not the solution we need right now.

• SPM alone doesn't mean much.
• So? Could simply be because not that many skilled BR100 like to use the MCG. I don't personally like the MCG myself since it doesn't really have a role besides just being an alternative to LMGs.
• It's still effective. The data doesn't suggest it being ineffective in any shape or form. Because something might be less effective than other options doesn't mean that it's ineffective.
• The Jackhammer has the benefit of being one of the best, if not the best, shotgun which makes it highly effective under the right circumstances. We all know how NC love their shotguns in bases that favor CQC. So in that sense yes, the Jackhammer is better than the MCG since that is in no way near the top of it's class. If you want to argue that heavy weapons should be the top of their class then I could get behind that, sure.
• They and all other .075 weapons are going to get nerfed and along with the general LMG nerf it might be enough to bring them in line with other LMG. I do agree that the VS have the best LMGs, but I don't agree that they need to be nerfed hard.
• Most certainly not the only viable choice, every single LMG is viable. Some are just more versatile/effective than others. I think you might be confusing viable with competitive. At which point I would be more inclined to agree with you.
• Again we have plenty of viable choices, the VS just have 2 better choices than either TR/NC. Then again TR have the TAR and TRV. Each faction have their own 0.75 weapons. The Jackhammer is the most versatile shotgun. The base design in many places just plain favors shotguns, not to mention the TTK.
• Maybe not, we'll see. Personally I would rather see each faction having the same 0.75 weapon options. Giving each faction it's own category of 0.75 weapons just seems rather arbitrary. I don't really see it as being a good way to make the factions more distinct from each other.

[Falcon_br]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

• SPM alone doesn't mean much.
• So? Could simply be because not that many skilled BR100 like to use the MCG. I don't personally like the MCG myself since it doesn't really have a role besides just being an alternative to LMGs.
• It's still effective. The data doesn't suggest it being ineffective in any shape or form. Because something might be less effective than other options doesn't mean that it's ineffective.
• The Jackhammer has the benefit of being one of the best, if not the best, shotgun which makes it highly effective under the right circumstances. We all know how NC love their shotguns in bases that favor CQC. So in that sense yes, the Jackhammer is better than the MCG since that is in no way near the top of it's class. If you want to argue that heavy weapons should be the top of their class then I could get behind that, sure.
• They and all other .075 weapons are going to get nerfed and along with the general LMG nerf it might be enough to bring them in line with other LMG. I do agree that the VS have the best LMGs, but I don't agree that they need to be nerfed hard.
• Most certainly not the only viable choice, every single LMG is viable. Some are just more versatile/effective than others. I think you might be confusing viable with competitive. At which point I would be more inclined to agree with you.
• Again we have plenty of viable choices, the VS just have 2 better choices than either TR/NC. Then again TR have the TAR and TRV. Each faction have their own 0.75 weapons. The Jackhammer is the most versatile shotgun. The base design in many places just plain favors shotguns, not to mention the TTK.
• Maybe not, we'll see. Personally I would rather see each faction having the same 0.75 weapon options. Giving each faction it's own category of 0.75 weapons just seems rather arbitrary. I don't really see it as being a good way to make the factions more distinct from each other.

If you don't think spm alone is enough, I have already made direct weapon stats comparative and the weapons with better stats are clear with better spm.
That's why I don't see future on MLG unless they all use NS weapons. It is clear that the TR is on disadvantage on all HA weapons.
While we must use the t9 carv on all situations, the NC and the VS have better options for close and long range, even to all purpose!
You can't be a competitive HA TR player and use something else then the t9 carv, unless you want a negative K/D.
I never saw a competitive streamer TR player that plays with HA, they all play with Mosquitos, or medics.
I don't get what you are talking about the TAR, the data is clear when the carnage BR is more used with better spm.

[ringring]

A little prior to this, by some days or so, Higby also talked about weapons that didn't perform well for the new and noobish but performed extremely well for the skilled and experienced.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

If you don't think spm alone is enough, I have already made direct weapon stats comparative and the weapons with better stats are clear with better spm.

SPM alone doesn't mean much since a weapon that has a high SPM yet low popularity simply shows how effective the few players using it are. Doesn't show how effective the weapon itself is, since the sample size is too small.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

That's why I don't see future on MLG unless they all use NS weapons. It is clear that the TR is on disadvantage on all HA weapons.

They mentioned a long time ago that NS infantry weapons would be used, unless they've changed that without me noticing.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

While we must use the t9 carv on all situations, the NC and the VS have better options for close and long range, even to all purpose!
You can't be a competitive HA TR player and use something else then the t9 carv, unless you want a negative K/D.

No we don't. The MSW-R is basicly the same weapon, but with a smaller magazine size and faster reload. And you can use other weapons and still stay competitive, at least during normal play. Don't confuse popularity with effectiveness.
The part about getting a negative K/D if using anything but the CARV is just nonsense. Personal skill is still the most important part, no infantry weapon is powerful enough to negate that. Except perhaps for OHK weapons.
I don't disagree that the CARV and in extention the MSW-R are in the top of the TR LMG tree, but I do disagree with the notion that we TR are so far behind when compared to the NC/VS.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

I never saw a competitive streamer TR player that plays with HA, they all play with Mosquitos, or medics.

So? Correlation does not imply causation. Buzzcut comes to mind as a former competitive streamer that played as a HA.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

I don't get what you are talking about the TAR, the data is clear when the carnage BR is more used with better spm.

The Carnage is in fact not used as often as the TAR. The TAR is performing better when compared to how much it is used. The Carnage's SPM doesn't follow its popularity to the same degree that the TAR's does.

Edit: A very good point and people have uhm pointed out. The grafs show SPM which basicly just shows how effective players are while using a specific weapon, not nessecarily how effective a specific weapon is. Maradine's Oracle was better at showing that by far.

[Obstruction]

i think there is too much qualifying information missing from this to draw the conclusions being argued about.

specifically, you can't know what activities the spm in question is coming from.

just think about how people play the game and what they really do at any given time. there is no way to know what they are doing, or why, at the time of a given sample.

even a general trend of all players over all time is not going to be conclusive data, because spm varies from doing nothing on any class with any weapon, to gaining 2-3 times the average infantry killing spm through other activities including abilities, traps, vehicles, and turrets. it also varies player to player, and hour to hour, based on server pop, region pop, member status, alert status, and whether or not they generally defend or assault.

you may think those things sort of magically cancel each other out, so you can just look at the thing you want, and have a neat little picture. but, it isn't really that easy. because science. there's a reason people with white coats and clipboards wear white coats, and carry clipboards. that reason is science.

even if you take a large sample where almost all other influences than class and weapon are made equal, and are also certain that during the sample all classes are focusing only on being effective with that weapon at roughly equal weapon/class skill, you still have to do control samples in different fighting environments, because weapons perform differently in small and large conflicts, vary in effectiveness by ranges required at a given conflict, and vary in effectiveness against enemy weapon/class combinations and load outs.

you could probably draw an alright picture of weapon/class effectiveness if you did a large series of experiments with controlled groups of generally equal players. however, i think a sample of BR100 is just picking a small group with far too much variance in weapon/class skill level, since you can reach BR100 in so many ways other than the listed weapon/classes.

it would be better to pick from middle of the road players with a given range of hours at various weapon/classes and then have them participate in controlled environments and sample that way. then you could sort of start talking about what is better here or there, and used by whom.