Is the TTK too fast?

[ChipMHazard]

Threat made a good point about my poor wording in the previous thread, so I made a new one.

Clarification of options:
Faster TTK = Less damage required. Easier to kill/destroy your target.
Slower TTK = More damage required. Harder to kill/destroy your target.

Here are some questions for you. Do you think that the latest balance patch has made the TTK faster and if so is the TTK too fast? Of course you should also take server lag into account as that will massively affect the percieved TTK from a player's perspective.

I'm interested in seeing what people think about this, even though it's only been a short while since the patch. Personally my limited experience since the patch makes me say that the TTK is slightly too fast. What do you think?

Just vote for either of the first two options and either of the three last options.

Edit: Sorry about going full on retard with the thread merger attempt. I sadly can't bring your comments over from the other thread.
Sorry.

[Carbon Copied]

I would say that the TTK has become faster mainly exacerbated by the nanoweave changes (now it doesn't affect your HP but the damage received per hit). It definitely feels more along the lines of any fast paced, generic deathmatch, run and gun arena shooter. The problem with this is that the devs don't seem to like anything that revolves around "This feels like..." they like to quote stats and values at you and tell you that there's nothing to see and you should be moving along.

All of the factors now (to me at least) in this game lean towards quick turn over: fast "normal" run, endless sprint, faster TTK etc. I think you could argue that it's definitely PS1 on crack; but it has gone past the point of being full on brain dead and nothing but a bad version of Tribes 2 or UT99.

[Aaron]

This came up a lot during the early days of beta and I never really understood what the difference would be between a fast TTK and a slow TTK. A slower TTK just means you'll be using more bullets, right? It's going to be exactly the same thing but just less realistic, right? Wrong.

I think I'm seeing that a slow TTK would have a very dynamic effect on everything. In order for a game to be a strategy and planning based game, the human mind simply needs more time to think. You could say it "feels" too fast. What you are feeling is a lack of room for some in depth thought. When you add so many units, and then speed them up so much, a person will most likely have a hard time grasping the situation. When you can't understand the situation and plan accordingly because it's so chaotic, you won't have a game based on intelligence; but a game based on numbers.

With a slower TTK, you'd be giving more power to the smaller, organized groups. As it is now, I'd say that the strategy/skill cap on general gameplay is very low, and the power of numbers (with fast TTK = high # of random events) will simply dwarf the power of the skill factor. So, if you set out to make an organized push, it is more likely than not that your plan won't carry much weight and the random factor will nullify it.

Now, am I right about this? Well, maybe and maybe not, but I can tell you that I for sure don't see any organization having any effect on anything right now. If you're going to make a game where the numbers will usually be skewed to one side in every battle, you HAVE to make strategy/organization a MORE POWERFUL factor than the numbers are. Otherwise you have a very non-competitive and uninteresting game. % wins. Resistance is futile.

[ringring]

/agree AaronG

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by Aaron

With a slower TTK, you'd be giving more power to the smaller, organized groups. As it is now, I'd say that the strategy/skill cap on general gameplay is very low, and the power of numbers (with fast TTK = high # of random events) will simply dwarf the power of the skill factor. So, if you set out to make an organized push, it is more likely than not that your plan won't carry much weight and the random factor will nullify it.

Now, am I right about this? Well, maybe and maybe not, but I can tell you that I for sure don't see any organization having any effect on anything right now. If you're going to make a game where the numbers will usually be skewed to one side in every battle, you HAVE to make strategy/organization a MORE POWERFUL factor than the numbers are. Otherwise you have a very non-competitive and uninteresting game. % wins. Resistance is futile.

The flip side of increasing the TTK would be that the combat skill ceiling would increase. Combat will depend more on effective dodging and accuracy over a longer period of time during a 1 v 1 fight. People who are very good at FPSes will benefit from this, while people who aren't very good at FPSes, or newbies to the game, will likely end up getting less kills. This could lead to the game being more frustrating for people who are new to the game or can't shoot very well.

At the moment I'm quite happy with the TTK as it is, I think it's a good balance between being able to react to fire and also having a chance of taking down the 'elite' players if you get the jump on them. It's kind of a level playing field. The only time that the low TTK is frustrating for me is in situations where we are grossly outnumbered and probably shouldn't expect to survive long in open combat anyway.

Sonny

[Badjuju]

Definitely feels faster.

I really like the nano changes overall, especially the change to head shots. Being rewarded for good shooting is important for FPS games in my opinion. However the TTK does feel lower when I felt it was in a great place before.

Its funny that you bring this up as I was in game thinking to myself last night that I wished they raised the base health of infantry a bit. That way the changes made still accomplish what they were intended to for the most part, head shots would remain rewarding, and TTK returned to what it was.

The TTK just felt right before when everyone wore nano. It remained a lower TTK game but on the higher side of things. It really worked/s well with modern FPS shooter mechanics while making fire fights more competitive, rather than who got off their shots first or got lucky with a shot.

The difference isn't huge, and Im sure we will adjust just fine. I do prefer the larger health pools however. Not just for infantry vs. infantry combat, but because of the number of vehicles in this game. That extra health helps combat the incessant vehicle spam but still left flack a viable option even before the flack buff. Now more so than ever flack is very viable, a small base health buff wouldn't change that.

But who knows, maybe we just need more time to adjust.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I should note that it isn't 1v1 engagements that makes me unsure about the lower ttk, its due to the sheer number of people on the battle field. With all the cross fire and enemies everywhere, your health pool really feels lower than it is. May just need to some getting use too, but i feel that I die in allot more frustrating situations because of this, or in situations where i do not have time to react.

[AThreatToYou]

TTK without nanoweave is waaay too short. Even with, folks die really fast and now they die faster if you aim well. IMO what they should have done is remove the nanoweave certification but give its effects to every player.

[Canaris]

TTK is slighty to fast now imo

[Stardouser]

I think one thing that has to be mentioned in TTK is the controlled conditions versus actual gameplay. If it takes 5 shots to kill and the average weapon discharges 5 shots in .25 seconds then that's the theoretical TTK. However, that only happens if you put your weapon in someone's back at 0 distance, other things factor in.

We have infinite sprint, for example, which is good, but its speed is just a jog so if you're trying to run across your attacker's view to reduce hits, it's not so effective as it ought to be. And then you have VS (at least at close range) dealing a lot less with drop/recoil/spread, giving them a faster actual gameplay TTK, at least anecdotally.

Or in close range duels, TR can get the upper hand on NC due to rate of fire, for example which regardless of the theoretical TTK lets them output more bullets, which compensates for not caring about aim.

[HereticusXZ]

I think it's in a pretty comfortable position.

If it really needs to be slowed down just a tad that's fine but I'd rather we not have to circle-dance hose a target for 30-40 seconds with 100 or more bullets to bring down a player...

To a degree... I personally like a little bit of realism for immersion, a bullet is a bullet is a bullet and it should only take 3-5 to kill a person or something to that effect. We're only humans NOT space marines.


I'm not sure if it's beyond this discussion so my apologies if it derails... but I honestly think vehicles have the highest TTK with some weapons being able to just instant gib multiple squads of players. I think overall Infantry and Vehicles the TTK is in a good position but vehicles should become difficult to spawn or require pre-requisites....

MBT's require a Tech-Plant, Ligtnings should be added to that requirement.

Liberators and ESF should be restricted to a Amp Station connection

MAX and maybe some of the Infantry items like C4, AI Mines, or Tank Mines should be restricted to a Bio-Lab connection.


Put in some restrictions/requirements needed in a facility and you make bases mean something more and cut down on some of the stuff that instant gibs players with crazy high TTK. You'll also create some bigger battles as players fight over the facility they NEED not the facility they just want.

That's what I see might impact TTK... /shrug

[WarbirdTD]

The TTK has certainly become shorter since the patch. This whole nanoweave change feels like a direct buff to NC, since they have a large number of 167 and 200 dpb guns, which when headshots are scored, do a supreme amount of damage to their target. It really is quite noticeable when fighting a competent opponent like Recursion. I finally had to just get rid of my nanoweave heavy setup, because it wasn't giving me enough protection.

Oh, and I switched back to my TMG for good measure... Good thing the devs are going the direction of "Moar bullets going OVER THERE is a good trait for TR right guyz?!?!" with future TR guns. <Cringe>

[Phreec]

Definitely faster after the changes to NW and headshots. I'm more in favor of higher TTK but I'm more happy with how the reworked NW made NC weapons more competitive.

[Tatwi]

Remove head shots for every weapon other than sniper rifles and I think the TTK would be a lit better. HS are too easy to randomly achieve and thus are being unduly rewarded.

Body shot wise, the TTK seems the same as when I played at the beginning of the year.

[Boildown]

As bad as they build latency into the system, the game reduces down to who sees the other person first instead of who can aim and strafe better. Because the TTK is so fast, far too often you can't respond to incoming damage and take cover or even shoot back. "Who sees the other first" being the determining factor does not make for a good game.

[Boildown]

Originally Posted by Tatwi

Remove head shots for every weapon other than sniper rifles and I think the TTK would be a lit better. HS are too easy to randomly achieve and thus are being unduly rewarded.

Actually this is a great idea. Its an easy change and will have the desired effect.