The spawn room fix.

Taramafor · 2014-02-15, 10:38 PM

This idea occurred to me when a member of TRG started a discussion about vehicle camping. Obliviously, it's war and things like that are going to happen. Then an idea occurred to me.

The problem

spawning in the middle of a base full of tangos isn't exactly the best way to get people out of dodge. All that happens at that point is people spawn in a surrounded base and get cut down the moment they exit the spawn room.

The solution

Personally, I think a base should be locked if the enemy are at 70% or greater pop for 5 minutes or have fought there for 20 mins with 50% or greater pop (for at least 3/4 of the time), therefor giving the illusion (or reality) of control through troop support. That would force players to spawn to an adjacent base or another hot zone where they can actually put up a fight instead of being fodder for an already lost battle.

Discuss away. replace/alter ideas. Etc.

Falcon_br · 2014-02-15, 11:00 PM

My outfit already hold a bio lab with 30% pop for more them 30 minutes.
Your idea fail. Maybe you can come with something better.
But I do advice everyone to redeploy one minute before the base fall, so we can setup defenses on the next one.
Too bad sometimes the enemy have the same idea and the respawn is already camped before the previous base falls!

Dougnifico · 2014-02-16, 07:35 AM

On the subject of spawns, how about multiple spawn areas? You can have the main room with the (never used) tunnels in place. Then you could have smaller spawn rooms (like the teleporter rooms in biolabs) placed throughout a base and even outside. It would make things easier for defenders. The attackers can only camp so many doors. lol

ringring · 2014-02-16, 07:44 AM

Hmmm, I don't think so.

At least not in that way.

What is needed is a seige-breaker mechanism similar to the base drain in ps1 (which would then be refulled by an Ant) and luckily enough I think it's coming in the resource update.

The old Ant mechanic was really quite simple and often simple works. Ps2 seems to be adding complication upon complication - which is ironic since one of the 'lessons learned' from ps1 for the devs when designing ps2 at the very start was that ps1 was too complicated. (Higby said many new players never ever found their way out of sanctuary, hence no sancs in ps2).

War Barney · 2014-02-16, 09:55 AM

The problem with multiple spawn areas is they all just get camped, theres really no way to counter spawn camping as people always need to come out at 1 specific place that can be found, the only other way to do it would be a teleport which put you at a random location everytime you used it which wouldn't work either.

OR instead they could make it so if you get to outnumbered a bomb gets set off which kills everything within a set distance from the spawn giving people a chance to push out and encouraging people to not camp so close.

NewSith · 2014-02-16, 10:15 AM

A simple solution would be to make spawnrooms uncampable. But that's too much to do it seems...

I mean, it apparently takes a lot to move Biolab Spawnroom on top of the SCU area, or to place corridors arounds spawnrooms for easier push on smaller outposts (Look at new AMP Station designs for instance), or to use basic navigation hints (like arrows and signboards on walls) to give mindless zergs an idea of alternate routes out...

Mordelicius · 2014-02-16, 10:20 AM

I'm just going to cut and paste this old post of mine last year on spawn camping. The best way, Imo is to add an invulnerability when players exit the the shielded area. (Note, this was posted before Harassers were nerfed and before they changed the Amp Station layouts).

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

I made this list last month after making this thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=56506 because I noticed the length of battles have been getting shorter due to either Sunderer wipes or Spawn camping/defense denial.

I didn't want to post it early because the Devs are focused on optimisation. Now that they seemed to be back on tuning gameplay, this it's time to make a new post.

Reducing Spawn Camping:

Fix the Spawn Shield bug - Done for the most part except for some splash damage through walls on towers. See, I made this list for a while now that the first point is obsolete.

Five-second invulnerability after exiting shield (much needed mechanic)

- Players exiting spawnroom cannot be harmed for 5 seconds
- Players cannot use weapons, throw grenades, drop mines, Max abilities etc during that time.
- Players who exit on stealth can be damaged.
- Players who stealth before exiting will have the invulnerability cancelled.
- Players who use their special ability after exiting (shield, jumpjet, stealth etc.) will have their immunity cancelled.
- Players cannot use repair or heal gun nor can maxes be repaired upon the duration of invulnerability

This is essential for eliminating spawn camping. The problem with spawn camping is the stacked damage on the chokepoint exit. This kind of mechanic will allow players to move out, take cover or hit back from a very bad position (something that is not possible at this moment).

Reduce infantry ability to climb high slopes

When they increased the vehicle traction many months ago, infantry traction on terrain was also affected. As a result, infantry can traverse really steep terrain (something afforded normally to LAs). And as a result, this allows players to climp rocks next to spawn rooms. Reduce it back to what it once was. This will reduce spawn camping

Add large hitbox to secondary weapons

The secondary weapons mounted on Tanks and Harassers need their own hitbox. These players use low bumps, small rocks and even crates to hide their vehicle hitbox AND still deliver damage. All they have to do is expose the gun and they can fire at will at the spawn room.

AV Turret on top of a high cliff - This is similar to the above except they expose nothing but the tip of their gun and they can't be hit.

Add extra barriers on Tower exit points - Tanks have to do is point to the exit and spam HE and infantry will be trapped. With Liberators and ESF, there's no way to even contest the other points.

Harassers inside buidings (need painfield)

Harassers are being placed in areas where only infantry have access to (examples are/but not limited to Amp Station capture point floor and Tech Plants capture point floor). There should be an insurmountable painfield when Harassers are being put there starting at the stairs. These high dps monsters mow down infantry like nothing. I've been in fights where the defenders are outnumbered 3 to 1 and they can hold for so long so their reinforcements can arrive.

Amp Station SCU shield need to be blue not red

Again, Harassers (marauder/vulcan), Tanks and even OP Maxes are being used to suppress any movement coming for the SCU room. That's an infantry corridor. With the changes to the Amp Station capture mechanics, it's difficult to sally forth when even the alternative route is being locked down unfairly. Players from both the defenders and attackers shoudn't be able to shoot through the shield.

OR, if that's OP for the defenders, move down the shield close the SCU but turn it blue so players aren't slaughtered within the room

Spawn Beacon/hotdrops away from the Spawn room

Players shouldn't be able to drop on top of the Tower for example. Right now players drop near highly elevated places next to the spawnroom so they can spawn camp from there. Another bad spot is the Tech Plant roof. Players drop there nonstop AND there no elevator whatsoever to get to the top for the defenders. Add elevator to the roof of the Tech Plant. If not, add a painfield so attackers can't just camp there with a spawn beacon.

Mines sliding downhill - Mines shouldn't slide downhill ( from their most optimally placed position ).

Reducing Sundy Wipes:

There's very little solution to this because it's mostly contigent on the Sunderer state (which atm is underpowered and very vulnerable)
.
Deployed Sunderes get bonus HP/Armor and less DPS

I know this will be used and abused as a Battle Sunderer if the DPS isn't reduced. Hence, whatever survivability bonus should have a commensurate reduction in attack capability when deployed.

Remove the No Deploy Zone - It was not necessary in the first place. It was a mistake and a false equivalency to compare Attacker/Defender spawns. Attackers have to protect their Sunderer and the Capture point(s) whereas defenders only have to worry about the capture point. There are so many downside to this heavy-handed-approach-to-remedying-poor-base-designs. The NDZ will not fix the less-than-ideal base designs. Rather it limits the gameplay.

The primary pressure for Sundy driver is not finding proximity spawn to capture points, but a safe spot to deploy. That alone doomed this concept.

Allow Engineers to repair from inside - Limited only to DEPLOYED Sundies. When a Sundy is deployed, 2 seats (4&5) inside should be allowed to repair. Give it a separate certline or a sidegrade to existing cert tree. Certing will open 1 seat. Certing will open 2nd seat.

It is very difficult to repair Sunderers from outside. If the engineers die from splash damage spam, the sunderer will be sure to follow.

Innate Radar to track Mine/C4 carrying enemies nearby - If not innate/free, allow us to cert a special radar that tracks only nearby enemies equipped/carrying Mines/C4 for all friendly players in that area.

It's far too easy to C4 and Mine Sunderers, not to mention the drop pods perfectly landing on the roof. This will be a good way to identify nearby threats about to suicide kill Sunderers. If possible make it a sidegrade to a weapon slot! Instead of of 2 weapons, I'm pretty sure, many players would rather have 1 special radar + 1 weapon combo.

That's it for now. Add any other suggestions to lower Sundy wipes and Spawn camping that's making fights really short. Thanks.

Crator · 2014-02-16, 10:53 AM

They most likely won't put the below things in the game because it would prolong fights. They want fights to move around the map, not stay in one place for forever. The OPs idea is exactly what the devs want people to do on their own. They don't want to take away the tactic of being able to spawn in to a location and try to take it back by breaking out of the spawns.

Fixing Spawn Rooms

1) Prevent vehicles from being able to spam the exits of a spawn room. Only infantry should be allowed to directly affect the spawn room exits.

2) Reduce enemy vehicles influence around spawn rooms

a) Give infantry the appropriate cover to have the chance to destroy enemy vehicles outside.

b) Do not allow ground vehicles to get near the spawn rooms and give the ground infantry enough cover from the spawn to the capture point(s) so they are not subjected to spam from enemy air.

Obstruction · 2014-02-16, 11:11 AM

what about just removing spawn rooms? there are several player driven spawn mechanics that are much less campable and honestly, more fulfilling to use and and defend. and i'm sure more could easily be introduced.

just enhance player driven spawning, and make minor base adjustments that facilitate placing or repairing spawn tubes at the capture points. place these inside buildings so that all you can really spam is the doorways, but need to breach and clear with infantry to disable spawning at each location.

after that the attackers have to hold the points for an extended time in classic king-of-the-hill fashion with only the exterior spawning mechanisms they brought along. this gives time (say 10 minutes or so) for the defenders to move back in from the next lattice point and try to clear and repair the spawn tubes one control point at a time.

this way you can also remove the capture xp, so that there is no reason to hang around waiting, and no spawn room champions to babysit. this would also facilitate much more fighting between bases and make use of the available terrain for more than just racing to the next zerg spam camp, and running over friendly foot soldiers for sport.

--

it seems to me the issue is on both sides of the spawn shield, for one thing. for another, you will never be able to design a spawn room that is uncampable because the spam has to meet the shield someplace. the way it's built around these shielded rooms that are separate from the objective makes no sense at all.

there's a reason that king of the hill is in every game, and works just as well with little kids pushing each other off the swings as it does in paintball or online shooters. it's simple and fun. the guy who pushes the other guy out then has to not get pushed out.

duh.

Taramafor · 2014-02-16, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

My outfit already hold a bio lab with 30% pop for more them 30 minutes.
Your idea fail. Maybe you can come with something better.
But I do advice everyone to redeploy one minute before the base fall, so we can setup defenses on the next one.
Too bad sometimes the enemy have the same idea and the respawn is already camped before the previous base falls!

I don't claim my idea to be perfect. Perhaps it's something that should apply only to smaller bases. The bigger bases should probably have different "rules" for holding/taking them as they're so different with so much more room.

Palerion · 2014-02-16, 01:30 PM

Let's just turn spawn rooms into freaking battleships. Put huge guns on it that players can access from inside the spawn and are invulnerable while using.

But not really though I'm sure that would be terrible. I do wish there were something they could do though. Every time I see a liberator hammering a spawn room I just want to blow the junk out of it. Maybe we should give engineers mobile shield things like the ones from that one insomniac game that totally flopped. But that wouldn't work too well either. It's just a hard thing to do. I know looking at Esamir there is one base in particular (don't remember the name) where all the fighting happens at a middle ground between attackers and defenders, and the spawn is pretty much never camped. But this is all due to base design. I guess when you get right down to it that's the best way to stop the camping.

Rivenshield · 2014-02-16, 02:52 PM

The problem is rotten base design. The problem is the boring-ass three-to-five minute ritual of trapping the defenders in their spawn-outhouse with no way to dig them out and no way for the defenders to go around. And the defenders stay and shoot through their mysterious permeable shield and the defenders spam them, usually with vehicle fire, because.... there's nothing else to do.

A few metal shields and/or fences and spawn-tunnels and lame-ass no-deploy zones are mere kludges. They treat symptoms of a disease that was engineered and hatched by the development team and that they decline to cure.

War Barney · 2014-02-16, 03:43 PM

Battleship idea could sort of work.. instead of spawning in a spawn room they could make it so you always drop-pod in, would completely prevent spawn camping except by having AA to try and shoot people down before they land

Dougnifico · 2014-02-16, 09:58 PM

Another idea could be something like MAG did. Every 20-30 seconds, everyone who needs to spawn can parachute (cool star trek space parachute!) in on a dropzone. Each base could have a large drop zone and players could control their descent. They could be shot out of the sky, but it would be somewhat difficult to do.

I think it would be cool to have 1 main spawn room, additional smaller spawn rooms, and a large troop dropzone (in addition to setting up sunderers and beacons). Lots of spawn options there. Hard to camp the dropzone. Thoughts?

NOTE: In the dropzone, everyone gets to spawn at once and glide down. You die with 20 seconds till drop, you wait 20. You die with 3, you only wait 3.

Timithos · 2014-02-17, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

They most likely won't put the below things in the game because it would prolong fights. They want fights to move around the map, not stay in one place for forever. The OPs idea is exactly what the devs want people to do on their own. They don't want to take away the tactic of being able to spawn in to a location and try to take it back by breaking out of the spawns.

Fixing Spawn Rooms

1) Prevent vehicles from being able to spam the exits of a spawn room. Only infantry should be allowed to directly affect the spawn room exits.

2) Reduce enemy vehicles influence around spawn rooms

a) Give infantry the appropriate cover to have the chance to destroy enemy vehicles outside.

b) Do not allow ground vehicles to get near the spawn rooms and give the ground infantry enough cover from the spawn to the capture point(s) so they are not subjected to spam from enemy air.

^ Yes. All that ^

We're already playing Steamrollside so locking a base's spawns due to population is just a pro-zerg approach that'll increase zerging.

I've already solved the spawn camping on 70% of Auraxus at all small outposts:

Put Spawn Room C from Freyr Amp Station into every small outpost. This is a sunken spawn room with roof egress and 5 tunnels/teleporters. Spread the five exits out by 50-100 meters apart from eachother. All teleporters/tunnel egress points come up into buildings with no line of sight to doors. Each building has 2-5 doors. So it becomes virtually impossible for air or armor to camp 20+ egress points, and infantry would only be able to suppress the spawn with an organized effort by camping 6 exits all at once. It's armor's and air's job to bombard the avenues to the capture point as it should be, not the spawn room. It's infantry's job to guard and defend the capture point, not camp the spawn room.

Base defense is pathetic in this game even though defense is a core value from Planetside 1 that was abandoned. We're playing in airsoft/paintball arenas where a base is just obstacles equal to both sides. SOE apparently did this to attract Cod-kids and esports-esque tug-of-war, fast-paced battle flow in hopes of attracting mass competitive play. That's not Planetside. All we do in this current iteration is bring 55% attacking forces to a base and punch the I-Win-Button (60% to a Bio Lab).

It's sad. It's pathetic. It's not Planetside.

*sigh* You know what? I'm so tired of this. I'm unsubscribing. I have had enough. I just get in ESF's & Skyguards and shoot stuff these days.