Squad Spawn debate

[Knocky]

Originally Posted by RedKnights

As it was implemented in Planetside, VERY obvious, they streaked from the sky shining with fire and then landed, then let the occupant out.

If you dropped in a poor location you had 4 planes just waiting you nab your kill when that pod opened.

GotR Drop Podding - YouTube

Last week our infantry HARTed in.....right next to a GG.

Oopsies.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I have to say I envy you guys a bit because you have reason to have faith that the devs will actually make serious design changes.

With Battlefield, once beta hits, it takes an act of God to get anything other than attachment balance changes, as far as design decisions go they don't want to change anything.

Beta for PS2 won't just be a demo of the game as most game betas tend to be these days (though I did play BF3 beta and my GOD did it have problems - which were indeed fixed, mostly). PS2 beta will likely stretch into the months as it's balanced, retested, and balanced some more.

If I were to hazard a guess, based on estimates of a May beta. Fall/Christmas release, or potentially a first quarter next year, avoiding the chaos of competing with other AAA titles that always release in the fall wave. That gives some sort of idea here, PS2 can also carry beta right up to quite shortly before launch due to being a digital download game as opposed to physical.

Plus, SOE clearly have their head's screwed very firmly on, and don't seem particularly rushed. Whomever the suits in charge above Smed are they appear to be trusting in the knowledge and care the devs have, something that sadly didn't quite occur with Battlefield.

PS2 doesn't have the horror of a super-rival either. Battlefield was rushed out to get in before MW3's release and steal users, which it did quite successfully. It was at the cost of the game quality admittedly but it at least means their future games will continue their growth trend. Call of Duty is going to go down the tube in short time because they're still running on an engine which is technically just a modified Quake 3 engine from 99, and they have none of the people that made the game the success that it is because they all walked out in the Infinity Ward scandal, now residing at Respawn Entertainment under EA.

Gosh I seem to be going offtopic in several threads today. Apologies.

[MrBloodworth]

The only company who can afforded to revamp core systems during beta is Blizzard.

I do not expect core systems to change in any meaningful way here. I'm quite sure PS2 was green lit with a small budget, Cash shop and short Development time frame included in the pitch. You can already see all the corners they are cutting. Namely, the Design formula borrowed from other titles.

What we see in beta will be what we get.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

The only company who can afforded to revamp core systems during beta is Blizzard.

I do not expect core systems to change in any meaningful way here. I'm quite sure PS2 was green lit with a small budget, Cash shop and short Development time frame included in the pitch. You can already see all the corners they are cutting. Namely, the Design formula borrowed from other titles.

What we see in beta will be what we get.

Design overlap with other titles isn't necessarily a cut corner. As it stands, unless the videos I've seen of PS2 are elaborate mockups, they will do things better than the companies they are supposedly copying.

On the squad spawn debate, let's compare to WW2 Online for a moment. It doesn't have squad spawning but it does have the ability to, for example, within a city, there might be 5 different capture areas. Capture one, and your infantry can start spawning there(if you want vehicles I believe you still have to spawn back at the forward base).

Is Planetside 2 going to let you capture a chunk of a base and have people start spawning there, like that? If not, squad spawning is pretty necessary I'd say.

[MrBloodworth]

I don't have a problem with squad spawning, as it currently sits ( Timer, drop pod ), at this point its just a hart replacement.

I was commenting on the function of betas. Every single developer has said: "We will change it/scrap it in beta if it dose not work", so, excuse me if I don't really believe that. The realities never align for that.

[Chrispin]

Just like any other MMO that uses micro-transactions, Planetside 2 will be updated a lot more frequently than one-time purchase games, so don't compare this to every other game company, especially DICE.

Anyway, I know about that Section 8 game, but an anti-air turret is probably not right for the job of taking out pod droppers in PS2. It probably wouldn't be reliable, especially when more than one pod is coming down, and it wastes precious 45 second cooldown squad spawns if you happen to get killed before you even hit the ground.

It's much better to have a separate "passive" structure for preventing pods from even being available. It also makes building said structure more cost effective due to not being some ultimate defense with multiple roles.

I can imagine engineers building these pod jammers in enemy bases also to help even the odds. It would make for some interesting gameplay mechanics.

[Bonius]

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

I don't have a problem with squad spawning, as it currently sits ( Timer, drop pod ), at this point its just a hart replacement.

I was commenting on the function of betas. Every single developer has said: "We will change it/scrap it in beta if it dose not work", so, excuse me if I don't really believe that. The realities never align for that.

Finally another individual that has reached enlightment!

As for OnT: See previous posts

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Chrispin

Just like any other MMO that uses micro-transactions, Planetside 2 will be updated a lot more frequently than one-time purchase games, so don't compare this to every other game company, especially DICE.

Anyway, I know about that Section 8 game, but an anti-air turret is probably not right for the job of taking out pod droppers in PS2. It probably wouldn't be reliable, especially when more than one pod is coming down, and it wastes precious 45 second cooldown squad spawns if you happen to get killed before you even hit the ground.

It's much better to have a separate "passive" structure for preventing pods from even being available. It also makes building said structure more cost effective due to not being some ultimate defense with multiple roles.

I can imagine engineers building these pod jammers in enemy bases also to help even the odds. It would make for some interesting gameplay mechanics.

Actually, what ARE the anti-air options going to be? Will there be fixed AA at bases?

And to be honest, fixed AA at bases probably would be a good incentive not to use drop pods very close to an enemy base unless it has been taken out.

I would even go so far as to say you should be able to squad spawn on your leader when he is inside a base, except, you will drop-pod onto the roof of wherever he is and still have to link up with them on foot. and if that base is bristling with AA guns, you might not make it.

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Actually, what ARE the anti-air options going to be? Will there be fixed AA at bases?

And to be honest, fixed AA at bases probably would be a good incentive not to use drop pods very close to an enemy base unless it has been taken out.

From what we know so far;
- Personal AV weapons (lock-on, unkown effectiveness)
- Flak armaments for MAXes, see the TR Burster MAX for similar weaponry
- Currently undefined AA weaponry for the Lightning, said to be primary ground AA
- Tank secondary weapons (more for self defence?)
- (Constructable?) Base Turrets
- Potentially Engineer deployable turrets?

That covers ground AA, I think.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Duddy

- (Constructable?) Base Turrets

Ah, I think that covers what I was referring to...if there are constructible base turrets. As long as they are able to fire both automated and manned modes...yea, why not go ahead and let people squad spawn into bases? If the base defense has been set up well, they'll get ripped out of the sky.

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Ah, I think that covers what I was referring to...if there are constructible base turrets. As long as they are able to fire both automated and manned modes...yea, why not go ahead and let people squad spawn into bases? If the base defense has been set up well, they'll get ripped out of the sky.

I'd have to find the quote, but they're pretty dead set on no AI turrets this time around, everything must be gunned by a person. :P

So that might rule them out as a defence against squad spawn drop pops.

This is not to say they couldn't find something else to provide the same role however.

[Lokster]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I have to say I envy you guys a bit because you have reason to have faith that the devs will actually make serious design changes.

With Battlefield, once beta hits, it takes an act of God to get anything other than attachment balance changes, as far as design decisions go they don't want to change anything.

It's silly to compare the devs of Battlefield with the devs of PS2. It's a silly idea to compare a strict FPS to an MMO (of any kind). Furthermore, I have been in numerous closed BETA's where core concepts were changed or removed completely during the BETA phase.

Most people play an open BETA for a game which is essentially a demo and are surprised that nothing serious has changed. That's most likely because the same game has been in closed BETA for several months and all the major issues have already been tweaked.

As hinted to by devs, the BETA in PS2 seems like it will be long term with all of these concepts and ideas being tested and tweaked as needed.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Lokster

It's silly to compare the devs of Battlefield with the devs of PS2. It's a silly idea to compare a strict FPS to an MMO (of any kind). Furthermore, I have been in numerous closed BETA's where core concepts were changed or removed completely during the BETA phase.

Most people play an open BETA for a game which is essentially a demo and are surprised that nothing serious has changed. That's most likely because the same game has been in closed BETA for several months and all the major issues have already been tweaked.

As hinted to by devs, the BETA in PS2 seems like it will be long term with all of these concepts and ideas being tested and tweaked as needed.

Strange though it may seem, the biggest and most obvious difference between an FPS and an MMOFPS is the map size and player count. A lot of the finer points can actually be quite the same. And strange though it may seem, PS2 is the last hope of many disgruntled BF fans looking for a larger map, strategic experience.

Although, another difference is that MMOs can allow perhaps more powerful vehicles. If you have a vehicle that's so powerful there should only be one per 100 players, that can't be included in a game with a 64 player cap. Or it might not be anything to do with how many players but how big the maps are.. BF3 maps are too small for player artillery for example.

And back on topic, a lot of people got upset at the reduction of squads to 4 in BF3. PS2's even larger squads and squad VOIP will be a HUGE attraction for us BF refugees.

[Lokster]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Strange though it may seem, the biggest and most obvious difference between an FPS and an MMOFPS is the map size and player count. A lot of the finer points can actually be quite the same. And strange though it may seem, PS2 is the last hope of many disgruntled BF fans looking for a larger map, strategic experience.

Although, another difference is that MMOs can allow perhaps more powerful vehicles. If you have a vehicle that's so powerful there should only be one per 100 players, that can't be included in a game with a 64 player cap. Or it might not be anything to do with how many players but how big the maps are.. BF3 maps are too small for player artillery for example.

And back on topic, a lot of people got upset at the reduction of squads to 4 in BF3. PS2's even larger squads and squad VOIP will be a HUGE attraction for us BF refugees.

Of course there is (or will be) similarities between the two. I also play BF3. You forget one major and distinct difference (aside from the obvious map size and player count) which is persistence and the hard truth that you can't balance things based on a 15 minute "match". Designing gameplay for spurts of 10-15 minutes while knowing a reset is directly afterwards is a completely different animal from designing a game that is persistent with no resets. Also what works with 64 players probably will not work with 2000.

My post was based on comparing an open beta experience of a basic FPS (and how nothing major typically changes before retail) and that of an MMO closed BETA -- where hundreds if not thousands of things change and/or are tweaked before retail (or launch in this case -- since there will be no "retail" fee).

I am confident PS2's BETA will in fact be a BETA where the testers have input and core concepts will be tweaked, added, removed or changed.

And so again, I reiterate the need to wait until BETA, to put forth any serious criticism or debate on the squad spawn issue and/or it's mechanics.

[Figment]

There always seems to be this idea with some people that in a beta they will be able to completely revamp the game.


But why do you think I give such strongly expressed critique in advance? >___>